hours upon hours, years upon years

[GGL]

Can you fully learn to play the piano in a couple of months?

Can you encompass the full art of playing a guitar in a couple of year?

Same as any other art..

Now the kazoo may be a different story

[David]

I have absolutely no interest in any of the simpler MA's.

1. Their curriculums are limited.
2. They are usually sports.
3. You can't do them effectively into old age.
4. They don't promote health into old age.
5. They have no gestalt/holistic knowledge of the human condition.

-David

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MightyB
I think that the "Years upon Years" thing has been a little misconstrued.

A "normal" person should be able to be trained to effectively fight in about 6 months time no matter what style of MA that person is learning. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a throw is a throw, a lock is a lock... Besides, perfection of a few moves is way more effective than mediocracy in many. It's the magic and mysticism that boggs things down.

What needs to happen is that people have to either take responsibility for how they are training or how they are training other people. I use the "simpler" styles as benchmarks. I constantly ask myself, if I were to fight a person with "?"months "?"years of Thai boxing (fill in fighting style of choice), how would I do? Would I be a chump or a champ? Depending on the assessment, I modify my training. I know that that assessment would work when teaching too. You must constantly assess the basics of your students and rate them against proponents of other styles. Then drill the pi$$ out of them until they get it right.

Put the Fight first, the super mental crap comes with time, experience, and confidence.

I disagree. I know someone who, for their fist year in xingyi learned but one stance and one punch. It wasn't due to mysticism, but due to perfection. He wanted his student to fully understand everything he possibly could about the punch and stance. I know we've all heard about the days of old where students for the first several months did nothing but horse stance. It's not the "wrong" way - just slower.

[MightyB]

You said you disagreed, but you actually agreed...

I said:

"Besides, perfection of a few moves is way more effective than mediocracy in many."

and:

"It's the magic and mysticism that boggs things down."

You said:

"I know someone who, for their fist year in xingyi learned but one stance and one punch. It wasn't due to mysticism, but due to perfection. He wanted his student to fully understand everything he possibly could about the punch and stance."

I betcha he could apply that punch too.

[kungfujew]

It is truly simple.

Kung - Fu.... the definition of which is Time & Energy.

We learn/practice over much time and expend a lot of energy for the purpose of HEALTH. The motions we use help us keep an overall "shape" in our health. CMA helps us use muscles that are not used in ordinary activity. The cross-legged stance for example.
This allows us to have a more solid stance.

This helps not only our fighting ability, but as we age, the fact that our "support structure" is stronger BECAUSE we've trained all those unused muscles, we should better able to prevent a fall in the first place. Then, if we do fall, we've been trained HOW to fall.

Did you know that 80% of elderly women who fall and break their hip(s) DIE within 3 years?.

So, MA and especially CMA is really for health first.

YES,, if your goal is Self Defense, take some crash course or seminar to learn a dozen techniques, practice them well until they become instinctive.... and THEN learn the long-term stuff for health.

In the end, the long term stuff KUNG-FU (TIME & ENERGY) will refine and perfect your motion. It will make you more efficient in motion. More power less energy. Better balance. These are all very important,,, yet require the dedication and timelessness to acquire.

Sifu Z

[ewallace]

So, MA and especially CMA is really for health first

Totally disagree.

So, MA and especially CMA is for health first for some people, and is for fighting first for others.

That would be more accurate.

[MightyB]

It's amazing on how many of you wish that you could disagree with me but actually reaffirm everything I said. This is probably because most of you are learning the real $hit, which is good.

I said: "Martial Arts especially traditional CMA follows a very linear A to B to C to infinity process. First, you condition and strengthen the body through exercise (so you can be physically able to fight). Second, you learn to fight. Third, you develop the internal powers. Why do people believe that they can start at C? I don't know the answer but it's killing CMA."

I would have to repeat all of KungfuJew's (quite possibly one of the coolest names on KFO) post, but you get the point.

First, Health (to fight). Second, Fighting. Third, Longevity, greater insight, Chi, personal development---Yada Yada Yada...

The original poster was asking about the length of time to get any proficiency to be able to fight. I say, in a real school, 6 months to a year.

[norther practitioner]

So, MA and especially CMA is for health first for some peope, and is for fighting first for others.

Well, as my Shirfu put it, if you get your arse handed to you, are you in good health? No, you just got beat up and probably have some bruises, scrapes, and maybe more injuries..... So, when people ask me why I study CMA, I tell them for my health.
Mental, physical, etc.

[ewallace]

if you get your arse handed to you, are you in good health?

I knew that would come up. However, that is arguing semantics. I am arguing mindset. If you could fight better your health would not be questioned. Take this statement for example:

I take vitamins, eat right, and visit my physician for health. I take martial arts classes to learn to fight better.

That is a mindset. That is true to the person that said it (thoretically...stay out of this Braden). And not all styles focus on health. So to say that all martial arts focus on health first would be inaccurate.

[apoweyn]

mightyb,

The original poster was asking about the length of time to get any proficiency to be able to fight. I say, in a real school, 6 months to a year.

and i'd probably agree with you, if that were their priority.

what i disagree with is the assertion that this should be their priority.



stuart b.

[kungfu cowboy]

Teacher says to keep your head upright not to improve your posture but because you want your range of vision as wide as possible when fighting multiple opponents.

I think he made this one up.

[MightyB]

Even the elderly and the handicap learn to punch and kick, and then how to defend against a punch and a kick...

How else can you teach kung fu?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MightyB
You said you disagreed, but you actually agreed...

I said:

"Besides, perfection of a few moves is way more effective than mediocracy in many."

and:

"It's the magic and mysticism that boggs things down."

You said:

"I know someone who, for their fist year in xingyi learned but one stance and one punch. It wasn't due to mysticism, but due to perfection. He wanted his student to fully understand everything he possibly could about the punch and stance."

I betcha he could apply that punch too.

Yeah, I agree - I half read the post. I'm sitting in an ALL DAY SQL class and I read bits and pieces of it while I was on break.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MightyB
Even the elderly and the handicap learn to punch and kick, and then how to defend against a punch and a kick...

How else can you teach kung fu?

that doesn't necessarily equate to actually fighting though. if you started introducing more intense self defense drills, with padding, more contact, practice weapons, etc., many of those same students may not be interested in taking part.

so is it the movement and exercise they enjoy? or are they truly looking for combat?



stuart b.

[MightyB]

"that doesn't necessarily equate to actually fighting though."

In the ol' days, it did. You wouldn't learn otherwise. It's only in our pansified 21st century that we've lost site of what it means to be a martial artist.