Mindset

[dnc101]

Like King Richard (a la Monty Python) facing the rabbit in the 'Search For the Holy Grail', the new mantra in many martial arts circles is "Run away! Run Away!" While I am in complete agreement with the principles of situational awareness and avoidance, and even agree that it is best to walk away if you can, I see a danger in giving this philosophy the pre-emenance it gets these days.

As martial artists, we train for the situations where these have failed or are not possible or desireable. I would suggest that if you have the time to avoid or leave, you have the time to consider your options and follow your best judgement. The opposite is usually the case when you have to use your skills. The attack will probably be sudden and brutal, or the danger very real and horrific. If your mindset is to avoid, you may not have the time to change mental gears. If the threat is terrible, you may miss shift and get stuck in neutral.

Under stress, you will react the way you train, especially the way you train your mind. I am arguing here that we'd be better served to contemplate the unthinkable- that we may have to harm someone else in defense of ourselves or others. Develope a mindset of attack the attack, penetrate and dominate, immediately go on the offensive with the intention of destroying your opponent.

I'm not advocating bloodlust or looking for trouble. I'm just saying we should prepare for the worst case scenario. If you have the time to think you know you have the options of retreat or compliance. But if you don't have those options, for whatever reason, and if the situation is such that you are driven by instinct and training, your mindset should be one of immediate and unhesitant devastating counter attack. Having that mindset at the instant you need it implies prior training and mental conditioning.

Just food for thought the next time someone tells you not to practice a technique, 'just run away!' I'd rather make rabbit stew!

[watzun]

I would agree with you that mental attitude and mental training have everything to do with it. For me keeping a constant focus is one of the most challenging things about MAs. Not only does it allow you to stay mentally prepared for dangerous situations, it also gives way to better execution of technique.

Enjoying the rain,
watuzn

[dnc101]

Originally posted by watzun
Enjoying the rain,
watuzn

Yeah, we need it here east of the mountains. But I wouldn't want as much as the west side gets- or even that 'Other Washington' across the country. Have a good one!

[omegapoint]

When I first started really learning how to fight my first instructor would tell me to run if I could. He emphasized avoiding physicality as much as possible. When I turned 18 I had just finished my 5 mile run for my BB and received my first "real" ranking (shodan), when my sensei asked me what I would do if faced with a confrontation. I told him, "I would use my words and mind", he replied with, "and if that didn't work" I said, "well then I guess I would run, if I could". He laughed and said, "well run then". I looked at him and said "what"? He replied "run". "Now, down the sidewalk". I did and he caught me because I was so pooped from my test!

He explained that as a child and adolescent, it was his duty to teach me as he was taught. Chivalry and positivity must be cultivated in youth. In that way safeguards are placed to help insure against a fighter using what he knows for selfish reasons. Teaching children and all students the Shaolin motto of abstaining from any unnecessary violence, and using what you know to protect the lives and welfare of your loved ones, the innocent and yourself, is karmic insurance.

So you can run, but if you're caught can you fight to save your arse?

We sparred for 18 minutes, and he waxed me, but I got him good right at the end with 2 thigh kicks that paralyzed his legs. He laughed and said, "that is your insurance that I won't be able to run you down again, hahaha"! He ended with, "in the final analysis, self-preservation is the most important. Sometimes you just have to stand and fight"!

Peace....

[dnc101]

Omegapoint, that was a good illustration of the different philosophies and the reason for teaching both. Sounds like you had a good instructor.

What I'm saying here is that many martial artists havn't made it past that first stage. At least it appears that way if this forum is any indication. Try to post a question about a technique or sceario based problem and most of what you'll get in response is 'run away!' Post a thread about how martial arts saved you or someone else and you'll be told you should have 'run away!' Even posts about training get the response that you shouldn't bother working so hard because you can just 'run away!' Frankly, it gets a little tireing.

Any one know of a good track/running forum we could point some of these guys to?

[myosimka]

I see your point but devil's advocacy instincts taking over...

My greatest fear as an instructor is a student getting hurt. (Most immediately in my class but outside of class as well obviously.) I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to prevent that including sceanrio training based on student questions and the trackstar mentality works better for this than anything else.

2 examples:
1) A student got slammed following a rear bearhug and wanted to address it. We spent 2 hours drilling possible responses. Went over counters he already knew and added a bit of nastiness. Went out for a quick bite and went over the whole story. Went to a local frat party. Got drunk. Hit on a girl that someone else got territorial in reference to. Took a push from the guy, laughed at the guy and walked to the keg for a new beer. I also found out that he was outweighed by 50-60 lbs. This was just not smart and he was lucky. How many points could he have done something differently? Too many to name.

2) Student of mine showed up for class and we worked for a while. He was slow and moving gingerly. Noticed him favoring a side and asked him what he'd done to his ribs. Well, that was all he needed. Proceeded to tell me the tale of his weekend victory over a drunk at Fridays After 5.(Local block party situation. Usually 3000-4000 people.) He'd 'won' and succcessfully used things from class. He was still hurt(in fact, I'd bet if the Xrays had been done they'd have shown they were cracked.) and he was lucky not to have gotten worse.


I spend 95% of my time on karate and MA techniques. It is after all a karate class. 5% is lectures on self defense and Situational awareness drills. But realistically for the purposes of self defense that 5% is by far the most important. You're right you do react as you are trained. If you are trained to fight, that's what you'll do. Especially if you like to which most MA that I know do.

My general experience is it's actually the other way. I know tons of teachers that tell me they teach realistic self defense when what they are teaching is unarmed combat. Including a BJJ instructor who said "Fighting is self defense" at a women's self defense course he has guest taught. Personally I think that advocating a response of "fighting is self defense" over situational awareness to a group of people likely to be outsized by 50% and outstrengthed(yeah, I know it's not a word) by a factor of 2-3 is reckless. I like to work with him but don't let him near my class as he openly mocks the run training.

I do agree that if you are discussing individual techniques a simplistic response of "run away, run away!!" isn't particularly helpful or informative but hey that's the internet. As to instructors emphasizing this in their classes, more power to 'em!!

[dnc101]

Originally posted by myosimka
I see your point but devil's advocacy instincts taking over...

You make a good advocate, and I agree with what you said. I just think we are ignoring the fact that sometimes avoidance won't work. And if that time occurs suddenly, or if the attack is such that your mind goes into overload, then immediate reaction and an extremely combative response are necessary. I'm talking about the assault that ocurs at close range and takes you by surprise. You can't see them all coming no matter how aware you are. Or the multiple assault when your loved ones are in the line of fire and the assailants are seriously trying to do you and them harm.

I agree with you that situational awareness training is extremely mportant. I think it is a good idea to run scenarios to use the principles and techniques of situational awareness. I also believe it is a good idea to run scenarios with 'woofers' to train how to respond by de-escalating or disengaging. I used to train emergency services crews, and one of the things we trained for is working while being harassed and even attacked- and yes, that does happen. Immagine the stress of being on an ambulance crew and working with a patient under those circumstances. Then try to immagine it without training. By the way, that kind of training can be a lot of fun, and you wouldn't believe some of the ways trainees come up with to deal with some extremely bad scenarios. So, by all means, continue to train these things with your students. But this isn't the kind of situation I'm talking about in my post.

I'm talking about an attack that requires you to respond immediately wiyh physical violence. If you havn't trained for this, and if you havn't developed a mindset to deal with it, the consequences may be tragic. If you have time to think about it then your avoidance training can take over and hopefully will serve you well. I am in fact arguing that to you need both, before the need arises. But I see what appears to be a one sided emphasis with a lot of martial artists here and elsewhere.

My point is that we should not neglect the combat part of our respective arts. That suggestion may not be politicaly correct, but...

[dnc101]

Originally posted by guohuen
There needs to be strategy in evasion as well as fighting.

True. But there also needs to be strategy in training. In training for the worst you have time to think about and develope the proper mindset to deal with it. When the worst happens, time is usually at a premium. I think a good training strategy would be prepare for the worst, strive for the best, and take responsibility for the outcome before the fact.

[OdderMensch]

I'd never run from an attacker. I have no confedence it would work. Unless confroted with a short, fat, chain-smokeing drunk, I figure anyone that would attack me, could out run me.

walk away, talk my way out of it, avoid the person/situation entirely? sure. But while I try to fight like a girl I know I run like a girl (think scotty from AP3)

"eyes bright and beaming with confidence can defuse many situations"

[rogue]

Boy am I late to this prom. Good points guys. What my sensei told me in regards to running is you first have to do things to the perp to make sure they can't run you down a la omegapoints sensei. Things like hurt their legs, take their wind by hitting them in the solar plexus or throut or take their eye sight. The one thing he said never do in a self defense situation is to stand around after achieving your objective.