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Thread: Ching Wu and Bak Siu Lam

  1. #1
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    Ching Wu and Bak Siu Lam

    I was wondering if any one could explain the connections of these two systems. I understand the basics. Ching Wu seems to have been an association of several different styles being taught at the same school. Several forms are "core" forms that all Ching Wu people learn before specializing. Does the Ching Wu have any roots in Shaolin?

    Bak Siu Lam was a northern system that the famous iron palm master passed down that has his own series of famous forms. I beleive he became part of the Ching Wu school.

    Is there any other information? Were did the Ching Wu forms come from? Were they created by the school or were certain existing forms from various styles used as the core?

    I am just currious about any info on these two schools and some of there relations.

    Tom
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    Last edited by tparkerkfo; 04-04-2011 at 05:30 PM.

  2. #2
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    I'm not the authority, but the Ching wu (Jing Mo) was formed by a few masters to strengthen the chinese peoples. Kyu Yu Cheong, the founder of Bak Sil Lum was one of those masters.
    The ten forms were brought in by the masters who formed the association as a way of preserving and standardizing the chinese martial arts from all china.

    anyway, I'm sure that NorthernShaolin (the poster here not the style) could elaborate with great detail on this matter.

    Or others I think that it is highly likely that Gene's done an article on this somewhere too.

    peace
    Last edited by Kung Lek; 11-19-2002 at 06:03 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Hi Tparkerkfo,

    The Northern Shaolin System (School) was made famous by our Great Grand Master Ku Yu Chueng (The Iron Palmist). He was a member of the famous Five Tigers of the North as well as a key figure in the promotion of the Chinese Martial Arts Culture in the South, focus through the Guo Ming Tong or
    the Nationist Art Institute in Guang Xi & etc., and his own school the Guang Zhou National Arts Society. This foundation via HK as a jump point allowed Ku Yu cheung's Northern Shaolin System to spread all over the world.

    In regards to the Ching Mo (Chin Wo) Association, Ku Yu Cheung himself was never a member. Although during this time a lot of exchanges did take place
    within as well as outside both Ching Mo and the Guo Ming Tong.

    Ching Mo however do teach other Northern Styles simular but not the same as Ku Yu Cheung's Northern Shaolin.

    Hui Clan

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    tparkerkfo,

    Hui Clan is correct in his posting. Ching Wu or Jing Mo is not really a system but is really an association of schools while Buk Sil Lum or NSL is a general term associated as a family of Northern Styles. Westerner translated the term Bak Sil Lum as it is related to Kuo Yu Chang's style incompletely and thus this miss-translation has been carried throughout the years.

    Bak Sil Lum or Northern Shaolin is a generic term or classification that includes many styles that originated in the Northern parts of China. There are Cha, Wah, Hung, Pao, Hua, Erh Lang, Lo Han, Mi Tsung, Tan Tui, Eagle Claw, Lui Ho. Battle sets, Wei T'o, etc.

    As for KYC's NSL there is a tranlation error. It should have been translated as Northern Style Shao Lin or Buk "Pai" Sil Lum which denotes it as a style and not to be confused with the Northern Shao Lin "Classification".

    Ching Wu schools had famous masters teach the common people while Guo Ming Tong or the Nationist Art Institute was run by the government throught the military and generally had younger, up and coming masters teach CMA.

    Ching Wu was founded by Huo Yuan Chia, a master of Mi Tsung, in 1909 while Kuo Yu Chang was only 16 years old and had just started learning his NSL from Yim Chi Wen in Feicheng, Taian County, Shangtung province. Sorry but KYC did not create NSL, it was an established style years before KYC was born. KYC's NSL can be traced back to Kan Feng Chih (Gan Fung Chi) who lived in the early Ching Dynasty.

    After Huo Yuan Chia passed away in August, 1909, Chao Lin Ho, a master of Mi Tsung, Erh Lang, Battle style and Tan Tui, took over as head instructor of Ching Wu. Chao established the ten standard Ching Wu sets. With the exception of the two Tan Tui sets in the 10 standard Ching Wu sets, the other eight sets are Mi Tsung sets. As the school grew he invited other masters who became known as the Four Elders of Ching Wu: They were Chen Tzu Ching of Northern Shao Lin Eagle Claw, Lo Kwang Yu of Northern Praying Mantis Seven Star, Wu Chien Chuan of Wu Style Tai Chi and Keng Kai Kuan of Hsing I.

    Later a fifth master was added, Sun Yu Fung of Northern Shaolin Lo Han.

    By the time Kuo Yu Chang completed his studies, Ching Wu had numerous famous masters already teaching in their schools and Kuo was just another young budding master that did not fit into their program. He did not become a official member of Ching Wu but joined the National Arts Inst. and made his fame there. However he did go back to Ching Wu and appeared as a Guest Instructor every now and then.

    Currently Ching Wu schools offer a varity of styles in their curriculum, depending on their locations and their past connections to which Ching Wu school in China. A few Ching Wu schools do currently teach KYC's NSL as part of their curriculum, after all Ching Wu schools promote all CMA.
    Last edited by NorthernShaolin; 11-19-2002 at 09:31 PM.

  5. #5
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    Well shut my mouth

    I just learned something. again!

    thanks
    peace
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    Northern Shaolin, are there
    Last edited by r.(shaolin); 09-23-2008 at 09:57 PM.

  7. #7
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    r.,

    During the time KYC learned CMA, CMA was highly regarded as a skill or craft in order to make a living such as a security guard or a skill to get a higher position in the military. Therefore CMA was not taught freely or openly and was really a craft that was protected or saved for someone of family or close friends to learn. Having a martial arts school was not high on the job list during this time but was more for older people who retired.

    Most of KYC's classmates used their CMA skills in escorting business, and when the war(s) broke out, many joined the military.

    Some of the names that I have may have opened a martial arts school but they were more than likely small local schools. KYC's school became popular only because he had support from the government and many of his students were able to exit China through H.K.

    If KYC had taken an assignment from the government and open his school more towards the western part of China and away from any ports, or had stayed in the northern parts of China, we would not have any knowledge of KYC or of NSL.

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    NorthernShaolin,

    Your comments make
    Last edited by r.(shaolin); 09-23-2008 at 09:58 PM.

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    Hello all,

    Thanks for the great responses. Some of the above info I was aware of, but alot was new and helps out alot. Another follow up question is to the similarity of the two groups? It seems the Ching Wu forms may be different depending on your specialty, but I was wondering how similar or different it is to Bak Siu Lam in application and/or training.

    Thanks
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    Last edited by tparkerkfo; 04-04-2011 at 05:31 PM.

  10. #10
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    Standardize forms.

    tparkerkfo,

    Let me answer your question as I understand it.

    There will always be differences or variations with forms from school to school. Ching Wu has made attempts (and are successful) in standardizing at least its first 10 sets via, books, manuals and now videos. Ching Wu is well orginized and has committees to work on such projects. Where as other schools are very loosely organized and no such standards are set because every individual masters have their own opinions as to what should be a standard.

    Bak Sil Lum schools are not organized as one unified organization like Ching Wu so their forms will be different from school to school.

    Currently, Tai Chi Praying Mantis schools which are a very tight community, would like to standardize their forms and have taken steps towards that goal but internal differences between masters have prevented it from becoming a reality.

    Take any school and look at the top five students performing the same set and one will notice variations. What is important is that the core and the essence of the form has been transmitted. Applications will follow and are usually the same. I cannot comment on training part because every school trains differently. This depends on the sifu and his program.

  11. #11
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    Hello Northern Shaolin,

    Thanks for the information, I am aware of what you wrote from my own experiences. I think my question may not be too clear. Forms to me are a packaging of material. It is easy for forms to change over time. I am not too interested in the appearce of the forms as with the core methods, concpets, applications etc. I see some similar things in both groups, I can't say style since Ching Wu curriculum is not a style. But the 10 core forms seem, or atleast the two that I am familiar with, seem to have certain traits that may be in common with Bak Siu Lam. So, I was wondering how the applications might compare. I realize that they come from seperate sources and that I don't have a good grasp on the Bak Siu Lam, but I am still curious.

    Would the Ching Wu 10 core forms fight right in with Bak Siu Lam with little notice or are they radically different? Again I don't mean the forms litteraly, but rather the techniques, applications, and concepts? The two we practice are VERY different from Hung Gar, though they seem to be hung gar-ized a little.

    Thanks again
    Tom
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    Last edited by tparkerkfo; 04-04-2011 at 05:32 PM.

  12. #12
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    tparkerkfo,


    Okay let me make another attempt to answer your question in regarding Ching Wu's (Jing Mo) 10 standardize forms with a typical Buk Sil Lum or a Northern Shaolin form.

    All of the10 standard forms of Ching Wu are of a Northern style and their roots can be traced back to Shaolin. So they do share a common root and therefore it is highly likely that the applications would be very similar if not the same.

    As for my own experience in comparing the two, since I have first hand knowledge in both Ching Wu's curriculum and in two northern styles, I would say "Yes, they do share the same techniques and applications".

    However, observing applications in forms really depends on one's experience and one's original martial arts roots. My roots are only based on northern forms and so my ability to 'see applications' in forms is based on my own limitations in my pool of knowledge.

  13. #13
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    Hi Northern Shaolin,

    Thanks for taking the time. You have been really helpful. I think you have answered it fairly well. Yes I understand the shaolin thing and many northern styles might share similarities. When I think of northern systems I think of Law Horn, Bak Siu Lam, Eagle Claw, Northern Praying Mantis, etc. ALthough they are all northern, I think each has a different feel and perhaps different applications. Eagle claw seems a littled different from praying mantis for example. Though it is hard to say since I have limited experience. So, I was just currious as to how similar ching wu 10 core forms and bak siu lam would be. I think you answered it well by saying they share many similarities.

    Thanks
    Tom
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    Last edited by tparkerkfo; 04-04-2011 at 05:33 PM.

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