Mas Oyama

[nahcybrad]

I've heard somewhere that Mas Oyama was actually defeated once or twice during his lifetime. Who defeated him and how?

[Stacey]

a bull with its horn

[Former castleva]

What do you mean by "defeated"? That is quite a strong word.
What we know is that he has been deceased for long.
What comes to bull thing is that he "fought" those animals and chopped off a horn or two,there is also film footage of him crushing a single horn.
I know Jon Bluming who used to be his student amusingly claims in one of his interviews how Oyama used to,nearly,get "heart attacks" from watching Bluming´s unique display of character.

[Stranger]

Jon Blumming's statements concerning Oyama are questionable in my book and therefore I take what he says with a grain of salt.

Oyama's stories are probably flavored by myth and legend, but Blumming's story of Oyama is flavored by politics. I personally put Oyama in the category of "serious martial art badarse" and innovator in the area of cross training, but make a policy not to swallow the Oyama partyline hook, line, and sinker.

I know that by Oyama's own admission, he got knocked on his butt by a Thai Boxer nicknamed "Black (Mamba or Cobra)" in rd. 1 of a fight, but then according to his story he got up and knocked the MT guy out.

Oyama had teachers (some unitl fairly late in his martial development), so he probably recognized these men as his his senior in one way, shape, or form.

[Sho]

Once Oyama was really beaten by a bull. I don't know how severely, but he was stabbed somewhere by the bull's horn.

[Former castleva]

lol.Yeah.
Bluming is a serious but quite funny guy if his interviews hold any water.

[Budokan]

Wasn't it Svinth who said Bluming was the "quintessential streetfighter"? I respect his talent, and he's tough, but I also take many of the things he says with a grain of salt. That street-tough attitude of his (honestly come by) colors much of his personal philosophy and politics. I still like him, though. He's a good martial artist.

[phantom]

Some people claimed that Mas Oyama was soundly defeated by a tai chi master, I think Yang Cheng-fu style, and I think it happened in Taiwan. However, I have also heard that the fight never happened, although it almost did. Supposedly, once Oyama looked into the Tai Chi guys eyes, he felt that he would lose if he fought, so he changed his mind and decided against going through with the fight. I have a hard time believing that Oyama would have been afraid to fight anybody though.

[Stranger]

True, there is no denying that Bluming is a badarse as well. I just don't get why he wore a Kyokushin-kai patch, Oyama's hombu organzation, on his gi and always mentioned his rank under Oyama, and then once Oyama died Bluming hated Oyama and Kyokushin karate. WTF?

Oyama trained under highly respected instructors throughout his life, so I guess there is more to him than the nay-sayers would admit.

Oyama was not the only talented martial artist to receive criticism by Bluming.
On the flipside, Bluming was not the only talented martial artist to criticize Oyama.

[DragonzRage]

To have been really defeated, you have to have actually fought. I don't think Oyama ever had any serious competitive fights in his life. Who did he ever fight? Where was it documented? Mostly people just tell stories of how he killed bulls and beat up all his students one after the other in sparring matches (yeah, like any lowly peon student in his organization would really try to beat him ). Oyama was the organizer, politician, and businessman of Kyokushin. Fellow founder of Kyokushinkai, Kurosaki Kenji was the one who actually fought serious matches. Hell, he even went to Thailand to test his karate skills against thai fighters. He also seemed much more humble and soft spoken than Oyama. I respect him more.

[Stranger]

Dragonzrage,

I respectfully disagree. Oyama fought in the venues available at the time and innovated new fighting formats when he became disillusioned with what was available. People forget that Oyama already was beyond competition age when he invented Kyokushin. I have never heard of anybody sharing in the credit for creating kyokushin, that is a new one to me.

Karate training and fighting: He began to stand out during his Shotokan days. He had a reputation for being a tough guy. He started complaining about the lack of sparring of any type in Funakoshi's organization at this period. He left Shotokan to join Japanese Goju. Why? Because Japanese goju had just implemented a form of sparring based loosely on kendo and judo rules altered to suit karate, th first of its kind in Japan. He excelled in this format (All-Japan champion in the first post war tournament) but grew disatisfied with the "point scoring" so he invented his own format of "jiyu kumite" when he opened his own organization, which was contiuous no pads full contact free sparring with face punches allowed (they weren't banned until later). He was in his mid/late thirties when he formed Kyokushin. Prior to that he had competed in any format available and now that he had his independence he took his skills on the road. He went to SE Asia, looking to train and fight. He went to Europe, looking to train and fight. He uses his students in his 100 man kumite (nothing but a demo) because it isn't easy to gather 100 people willing to throw down, but he has had open calls for fighters. There was at least one open challenge by Shigeru Oyama, at the time still in the Kyokushin-kai, wherein he offered to fight any 100 men who showed up (and the event was in NY). S. Oyama defeated all comers and hopped in his car drove to another seminar and did it all again within a ridiculously short peiod of time (can't recall exact time frame, it was really short like a weekend or a week).

Judo training and competition: He had a 4th degree BB from the Kodokan, and apparently earned all of his points in randori competition.

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu training: During the war years, apparently Oyama's name appears frequently in the class registry of Kondo Sensei, a student of Takeda. As an operative in Japan's wartime intelligence community, Oyama was encouraged to study under Kondo.

Shootwrestling training: Oyama was a student of Antonio Inoki, who was a student of Lou Thesz, same lineage as Takada, Sakuraba, and American Catch instructor Tony Cecchine (sp.?).

Taiki-ken training: Oyama explored "internal theories" by becoming a student of this Japanese school of yiquan.


Just like the Gracies were only fighting in Brazil in the 50's, MT fighters were only fighting in Thailand in the 50's, etc. Oyama fought in the toughest venues available at his time, and was frustrated by their limitations. Maybe these venues were not all hardcore, but he didn't hide from contact. He didn't hide from competition, people just didn't globetrot for minor sporting competition, unless they were rich. Oyama wasn't rich, but he did the best that he could in the era before the modern passenger jet and countless fighting formats for style vs. style testing.

Is he the greatest? NO.
Was he a paper tiger? I doubt it. He had his foot run through with a katana during a demo gone wrong, and merely wrapped it up and continued on like he had nicked his little toe. He might have felt it, but he was too proud to admit the pain of the injury.

His background is very respectable for the time period of his career and the location where he lived. He did what he did in a period when there was no money in it, no fame in it, and basically no venue for it. Rather than dwell on the shortcomings of a career that occured before the sport of MMA had "arrived", note the fact that he crosstrained and blended ancient and modern training practices in a manner that would not be common for quite a few decades.

Nobody was talking trash in his face while he was alive, other than Emperado. Then again, your next question might be, "who has Emperado fought?" I can only reply "very tough men that never happened to step in an octagon or ring". They do exist.

Oyama was a promotion machine and unfortunately this has soured enough people to completely overlook everything else he might have had to offer.

To dismiss him as a martial arts 'fraud' is as biased a perspective as that coming from people who would have you believe he was invincible.

[MonkeyBoy]

Oyama used to use a bull in his demo. I have seen where he lobbed off a horn but only in stills. never heard that he took a hit from the bull.

What I found so amazing about him was his statement in his books the Tai Chi was a set of calastenics based on an ancient fighting art, whose fighting techniques were long lost in time.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Stranger
Shootwrestling training: Oyama was a student of Antonio Inoki, who was a student of Lou Thesz, same lineage as Takada, Sakuraba, and American Catch instructor Tony Cecchine (sp.?).

Tony Cecchine, yes. Tony actually received most of his instruction from the catch wrestler Stanley Radawan. He had a close relationship with Lou Thesz during Thesz's later days, and trained with him occasionally, like he trained with numerous other grapplers. Inasmuch as lineage can be applied to non-oriental styles, though, I wouldn't call him of Thesz's "lineage".

Not that any of this has any relevance to Oyama, of course. Just FYI.

[Ao Qin]

Hi Stranger,

Well put indeed - certainly did your research on this one. Good job! Thanks for sharing these occurances and info!

[Stranger]

Fatherdog,

You would know way more about catch "lineage" than me, so I defer to you.

I thought it went Tragos>Thesz>Inoki>Takada>Sakuraba (the last three are not catchwrestlers, rather shootwrestlers that incorporate elements of catch).

Inoki swapped grappling knowledge for striking knowledge with Oyama.

Wouldn't this be a lineage of sorts?

Where do you live in NJ? Are you training catch in NJ? Where?