Mas Oyama

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Stranger
I thought it went Tragos>Thesz>Inoki>Takada>Sakuraba (the last three are not catchwrestlers, rather shootwrestlers that incorporate elements of catch).

Tragos did train Thesz, but Inoki was actually trained by Karl Gotch. Most shootwrestling training is based on training from Karl Gotch. Both Gotch and Thesz were considered "Gods of Pro Wrestling" in Japan, but Gotch was the one who did most of the training of Japanese pro wrestlers. There is some argument regarding the extent to which Gotch was a shooter or a pure worker, but regardless of one's opinion on this, the rules of original shootwrestling (standing the fighters up after 60 seconds on the ground) greatly affected shootwrestling's style of groundwork, to the point that it is very different from authentic Catch, despite their common origins.

Sakuraba and Takada were both originally professional wrestlers, with shootwrestling training from Inoki and Gotch. Sakuraba also brings a history of college and high school wrestling to the table.

Wouldn't this be a lineage of sorts?

Lineage is always a fuzzy concept applied to American Catch, since so many catch wrestlers trained with many different coaches. The concept of a single sifu wasn't really there. Takada and Sakuraba could be said to be of the Gotch lineage, in a way.

Where do you live in NJ? Are you training catch in NJ? Where?

I live in Lambertville, work in Princeton, and train Catch in Elizabeth, at the OpenMat gym at the Bayside Academy of Martial Arts with Glenn Ortiz and Eddy Rolon.

[MA fanatic]

Oyama was definitely not a fraud. But, given the time, he did what he could to promote martial arts, kyokushinkai, and full contact events. I'm sure had he been alive and in his prime now, he would love to it down in the octagon. Keep in mind that we're living in the golden age of martial arts, where one can study any school of fighting, from the best masters, anywhere in the world. Often we can even get an undestanding of fighting concepts through the internet, video, and literature. In Oyama's days, people actually had to save money, travel, and seek out instruction. I do think that Oyama's powers are inflated. But, like someone above said, no one said that to his face and been turned down for a match. I read Oyama's autobiography on the same weekend as I read Funakoshi's autobiography. What a contrast in these two men's philosophies on combat. As for Oyama's bull killing, I find that concept disgusting. A friend of mine showed me a video of Oyama killing a sick bull marked for slaughter. This bull must have weighed less than Oyama (who was a big guy), hardly fought back, and just took the brutal punishment until he died. Honestly, I think Oyama's 100men kumite would have been harder.
MA fanatic

[Stranger]

Fatherdog,

Thanks for clearing that up. I never knew that Gotch worked outside of the circle of fighters that would begin the Pancrase cicuit.

Maybe the native influence of judo, Victor Koga's SAMBO, and the incorporation of various striking arts led to the "30 seconds only on the ground" rule of early Japanese shoot. I don't know. I'm just glad that they spend more time on the ground now days, than they did in the early days of the sport. (more time= less referee interference= more reality)

As a NJ resident, I have to keep up on the martial arts scene, particularly things as cool as a catch school.

[omegapoint]

There is no doubt that Oyama was a tough guy. The truth about his "colorful" history is another thing. Someone mentioned that he left Shotokan because of their lack of hard sparring. I don't know how you could prove that, but it's obvious he left for some reason. Maybe he didn't like Shotokans training methodology, but I doubt it was because of lack of hard sparring. Shotokan guys have always free-fought pretty hard!

As far as Yamaguchi's Japanese Goju being a style more conducive to his sensibilities. I can't say for sure either. Maybe he wanted the yang to Shotokan's yin. I was always under the impression that both had more yang than yin. He also studied Chinese "Kempo". How Chinese is that term? Hmmm.....

Now folks, noted unbiased historians like Robert Smith, have written that Oyama was a showman first and foremost. He wanted notariety for his "style". The bullfights (with little half-grown, Japanese bulls) were rigged. He had someone cut almost through the horns so that he wouldn't have any prob "chopping" them off. Even with this preparation he was still gored badly by one of these "rigged" bulls. His hundreds of undefeated challenge matches could not be found in documentation anywhere, and no witnesses could corraborate his claims. As for 100-man kumite, that does sound rough. What I want to know is why? Were his opponents gonna fight him all out? They were his students. They definitely wouldn't have anything to lose by not going all out. After all, Oyamas and the other BB's successes with this only validated the students reasons for picking Kyokushinkai.

I think you guys are right when you say these things about Bluming and Mas' relationship. I guess they had a falling out. That happens a lot in Japan and Okinawa. I guess it's the "student surpassing the master type thing". I think Bluming sadi that Oyama was promoting people to BB when they weren't deserving. $$$$$$$!!! Bluming has stated that he "cried like a baby when Mas died", and that he always thought of him as a "father that he was deptly indebted to for giving him the gift of karate". If Oyama's MAs credentials seem incredible or less than credible, it is well known that Bluming was and still is a force of nature. He is a better budoka to many of those who knew both.

I think Bluming is just brutally honest. He knew the real Mas Oyama, not the mythic character that we all read about. Mas Oyama was a pioneer in hard Japanese sport karate. It should be noted that he was basically equivalent to the rest of the pro "wrasslers" out there. Many of his "challenge" matches were done in a wrestling, WWE, sort of way. Formidable yes, but not as much he led people to believe.

Kyokushinkai is the epitome of Goho (HARD) fighting. Even moreso that GOju Ryu. Really hard training leads to easy injury. K1 was invented to test Kyokushins efficacy as a ring sport. As many can guess a lot of the champs are not Kyokushin, but Muay Thai and kickboxing. As a self-defense art it is lacking intent and as ring-sport it is mediocre in various venues (including NHB). Kyokushin is the antithesis, in many ways, to the traditional fighting principles of Okinawa and China, and even the Juho arts of Japan, like Judo. You can go hard in a soft art, but not in an external art. Shaolin training methodology, the foundation for NahaTe and ShuriTe, is right on point. As a style Oyama's style is kinda' hope fighting. Just an opinion.


BTW, I saw a Hector/Manny response on this thread. Does that make sense to any lurking e-budo types?

[Stranger]

It was my understanding, based on an article by Nakayama. that Funakoshi's first major karate class that he taught in Japan consisted of everybody doing 500 punches on the makiwara. Those who returned for the second class had passed the test of heart. Subsequent classes were nothing but kata. Those who remained had passed the test of patience. One step was only brought into the program because Funakoshi felt that he had to make allowances for the Japanese students' desire to spar. Oyama angrily referred to Shotokan as more an ettiquette and culture class than a fighting martial art and left. As I said before, Gogen "the Cat" Yamaguchi of Japanese Goju fame created the first rules for unchoreographed competition sparring in Japan. He had a background in kendo and simply modified the existing competition rules of that sport to suit karate. This was the lure that brought Oyama to the Japanese Goju camp, no mystical quest to balance his yin and yang (Oyama's fascination with internal power development had not yet reallybegun at this point). He wanted to compete, and the Japanese Goju schools were breaking ground in that area. When he wanted to see the level of competition increase in intensity, he left Japanese Goju and formed his own school with sparring rules that more reflected his personal traiing approach.

Now what I am writing aboutin these threads is JAPANESE karate. I'm not saying that Funakoshi didn't know more than he taught. He was looking to market his program as a staple in Japanese physical education, building the body and mind, and the original Japanese classes apparently contained no sparring as a result of this deemphasis on fighting ability.

I have heard the story of "preparing the bull's horns". It may very well be true, but personally I wouldn't fight a bull whether it had horns or not. He may have killed small cattle, but he also killed some really big one's that were earmarked for slaughter by the beef industry. Beef cattle are huge due to their diet and hormone intake. At least one bull was killed not with a strike, but by snapping its neck. I've never tried it, but it sounds difficult.

Allegedly, the fallout between Oyama and Emperado was over the latter's claim that Oyama prepared bricks for a breaking demo by firing them in a kiln (this makes them brittle and easier to break). Emperado confronted Oyama in mid-demo and snapped one of the bicks in his hands. I'd like to think that if it went to blows that day, it would not have been as disappointing as Cheung v. Boztepe.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Stranger
Thanks for clearing that up. I never knew that Gotch worked outside of the circle of fighters that would begin the Pancrase cicuit.

It's my understanding that Gotch worked with several of Japan's wrestling promotions, teaching them the pro style. Since shootwrestling drew heavily on the stiff workers of the Japanese pro style in its nascent form, its grappling was initially influenced primarily by Gotch's techniques.

Maybe the native influence of judo, Victor Koga's SAMBO, and the incorporation of various striking arts led to the "30 seconds only on the ground" rule of early Japanese shoot. I don't know. I'm just glad that they spend more time on the ground now days, than they did in the early days of the sport. (more time= less referee interference= more reality)

Myself, I like the early Pride rules; the fighters stay on the ground as long as there's activity occurring; then they get stood up. It allows grapplers to still maintain ground control for long periods of time as long as they're active about it, and makes for more exciting fights. Even as a grappling enthusiast, the "lay and pray" fights don't exactly fill me with joy.

As a NJ resident, I have to keep up on the martial arts scene, particularly things as cool as a catch school.

Openmat is really a general martial arts school; there are Judo classes, BJJ classes, Thai classes, shootwrestling classes, capoeira classes, and openmats where everyone and anyone can come and roll. I train Catch specifically with Glenn because it's what I found best suited for me.

Always nice to see another Jersey boy. Where do you train Systema? I'd been looking into that early on, but never really found a place near enough to me.

[Stranger]

Fatherdog,

I actually spend about 10 months of the year in VA and July and August in NJ. I live down south in AC. I keep NJ as my primary residence even though I spend most time down here in Arlington. So my Systema instructor is Serafim Yevsukov and he is based out of the DC area.

If you want Systema in NJ, check out Alex Wilkie in Bridgewater, NJ or Guy Velella in Closter, NJ.
Alex frequently has seminars, but be forewarned, these outdoor camps can cater to SWAT, state troopers, military personnel, body guards, bounty hunters, and SOF wannabes in addition to Vlad's regulars. The instruction can deviate quit a bit from acceptable self-defense (ie. CQB, abseiling, combative driving, sentry takedowns, stealth movement, kidnapping/arresting techniques, etc.). It is kind of 'paramilitary'. If you are uncomfortable about that type of instruction I suggest you find one of the indoor seminars run by Alex or in NYC at Chau's Martial Art (they teach SAMBO there too with Alex Barakov [sp?]).

Dave Rusin of AMERROSS runs a school in Princeton.

I am not suggesting that Vlad's organization and ROSS teach the same thing; I just wanted to present all options in the realm of RMA that I know of in the NJ area.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Stranger
I actually spend about 10 months of the year in VA and July and August in NJ. I live down south in AC.

Ah, okay. That's pretty far south of me, but my brother and sister go to Stockton College down there.

If you want Systema in NJ, check out Alex Wilkie in Bridgewater, NJ or Guy Velella in Closter, NJ.
Alex frequently has seminars, but be forewarned, the outdoor camps cater to SWAT, state troopers, military personnel, body guards, bounty hunters, and SOF wannabes in addition to Vlad's regulars. The instruction can deviate quit a bit from acceptable self-defense (ie. CQB, abseiling, combative driving, sentry takedowns, stealth movement, kidnapping/arresting techniques, etc.). It is kind of 'paramilitary'. If you are uncomfortable about that type of instruction I suggest you find one of the indoor seminars run by Alex or in NYC at Chau's Martial Art (they teach SAMBO there too with Alex Barakov [sp?]).
Within our organization, Oleg Taktarov is the primary SAMBO instructor.

Paramilitary training doesn't make me uncomfortable, but it's not really where my interest lies. Anyway, I'm pretty committed to Catch right now; I was just curious, because I hadn't really found much RMA in NJ when I was looking.

Dave Rusin of AMERROSS runs a school in Princeton.
I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT VLAD'S ORGANIZATION AND ROSS TEACH THE SAME THING; I just wanted to present all options in the realm of RMA that I know of in the NJ area.

Really, there's a ROSS school in Princeton? I wonder how I missed that... eh, I'm vaguely aware of the difference between ROSS stuff and other Sambo stuff; Sonnon posts regularly on the CACC forum I frequent. It's interesting stuff, but not what I'm into training right now. Thanks for the info, though. Let me know if you're ever up in NJ and want to roll; I've never crossed hands with an RMA practitioner.

[Stranger]

"Let me know if you're ever up in NJ and want to roll; I've never crossed hands with an RMA practitioner."

I'd love to, with nothing but respect for your style. I'd hope to learn from it.

[David Jamieson]

a friend of mine who is an excelent kyokushin stylist has a site with everything you can want to knwo about the style and it's founder Mas Oyama.

you can get to it by going to: http://www.diegobeltran.com

In my opinion, Kyokushin Kai Karate is the "best" karate you can study if you are gonna study Karate in modern context. THis is only my opinion, I have studied Karate and no offense intended for those who practice whatever you practice.

peace

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
In my opinion, Kyokushin Kai Karate is the "best" karate you can study if you are gonna study Karate in modern context. THis is only my opinion, I have studied Karate and no offense intended for those who practice whatever you practice.

peace

Alaikum Asalaam! BTW what style(s) of karate did you study (for 4 years)? For commercial purposes, like selling "Inside Kung-Fu" mags, you are correct. Kyokushinkai (and K1) is the best sport karate there is.

There are styles out there which will teach you kickboxing skills and self-defense. There are styles out there that very few folks have a clue about. Like anything, just because it's popular doesn't make it the "best".

In Okinawa and on Japan we sparred with many different ryuha (subsystems). The kyokushin guys weren't any better than the Shotokan dudes. In fact they fought basically the same way; Out of control and straightforward. This was schoolboy karate at its finest. They were too tense to spar with fluidity, quickness and speed. We didn't have K.O. or knockdown matches, but backfists and ridgehands to the head and face were allowed, as were throws, sweeps and leg kicks. A couple of guys from the KK dojo and one of our girls (who was sparring a much bigger DUDE) were knocked a little silly. One KK guy that got a good low roundhouse/high roundhouse combo to the head, thought his moms was trying to wake him up for school. He was like 30! Those were the rules we used at our dojo all the time.

At first they disagreed to the face contact as we were just wearing hand pads. We thought it odd that they didn't allow face/head contact in their kumite. Their Sensei explained that they often fought bare-knuckled, so I guess that made sense. Well anyway, since they weren't use to face contact we would rack up the points. They only tried to punch the body, and when they started to go high with their hands, they were slow, looping and often hesitant. I wonder why? They got winded quickly and insisted that we fight 2, not 4 (which was standard at our school), 4 minute rounds . Our students agreed emphatically. It was frantic, but kind of easy to score. A lot of our students though it odd that they taped their ankles and feet. Why? They said that due to their intense training methodology many guys had bad ankles and unhealed, broken bones in their feet. Wow, all that and this was all they could produce?

When the sparring was done, they would argue that the backfists and ridgehands wouldn't have done anything in reality except anger them. My sensei use to come back with, "yes you are right, without padding they would have broken noses or concussed temples. Ridgehands can become hooks and backfists straight leads and jabs." They couldn't say a thing about our kicks, especially our rendition of leg kicking, which was always setting up sweeps and trips. They didn't like the "holding and hitting" as they put it. We just giggled and said that was all Ti and this was "karaTI" after all! This happened every single time we would spar with a certain mainland school. They would invite us many times throughout the year. Same result every time.

Kyokushinkai in the USA must be a different animal. Since I've moved back in the early 90s all I hear about is Shotokan, TKD and Kyokushin. I guess that's what people have to choose from and observe. There's very little legit karate out there (about 20 % of schools). The same can be said for Kung Fu, probably. Europe is even more worse off.

I saw it as karate that used brute strength to compensate for its lack of varied and indepth knowledge of karate. Now Ashihara's Karate, a Kyokushinkai offshoot, was very intriguing. Their use of forms and its practical application was refreshing to see in Japanese Karate. Maybe Oyama's karate will finally make it back home to the Ryukyus after all. Regardless, the world will still be oblivious to the facts. They'll say that KK was the innovator and earth Mover, hahaha!

So for those of us who study "Whateva-otha' Ryu" I'd like to say go ahead and kill yourselves in training. It ain't making me an invalid at 60. I get stronger and better everyday. Lates...

[David Jamieson]

o-point- the Karate I know is IsshinRyu.
It's an excellent style and I very much enjoy study and practice of it.

peace

[dezhen2001]

omegapoint: just wanted to say asalam alaikum (if your muslim?)

dawood

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
omegapoint: just wanted to say asalam alaikum (if your muslim?)

dawood

Could just as easily be "Shalom" or "peace be with you".

I am Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Hebrew and Scientist, hahaha! Religion is so shizophrenic. The same message, different messenger. Variation on a theme. Like MAs, if your intent is correct, the spirit will reveal itself to you regardless. For religion the intent should be nothing but benevolence and unfettered truth. If your priorites are twisted and over-rationalized, if there is false logic in your intent, Existence will not respect you. The Deceiver will instead mask itself as the Creative Voice. Entropy will reign in your life.

Sorry, didn't mean to semi-hijack this thread. Blame the Universal Zulu Nation for making me opened minded! Peace, Unity, Wisdom, Love and Having Fun!!!

A-Dios...

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
o-point- the Karate I know is IsshinRyu.
It's an excellent style and I very much enjoy study and practice of it.

peace

In my opinion, Isshin Ryu is a much better style to train in than ANY Japanese karate. Who was/is your sensei? My sensei has a lot of Isshin friends. There is a reason that the Marines use Okinawan karate (Isshin/Shorin) techs in their H2H training. Why not Kyokushinkai or some other "hardcore" Japanese style if it's the best "modern" karate for fighting? I understand what you're trying to say. The "old school" styles are rare, but still "A-#1-Thumbs Up"!

I'm not looking for people to agree or even believe me. I'm just giving this thread an OP perspective. Did I just speak of myself in the 4th person? Scary. Anyway, no disrespect to sensei Oyama or KK. Just making observations.