White eyebrow defeated Pa Kua and Tai Chi?

[curious]

I remember reading that many years ago, some Pak mei guy fought in a kung fu tournament, was undefeated against many different styles of kung fu, and he claimed that the Pa Kua and Tai Chi people were his toughest opponents. Does anybody know if there is any truth to this?

[Constipated Wombat]

I haven't heard of this particular incident, but it wouldn't surprise me a whole lot, either. I've heard a decent number of these stories, and having seen good bagua and taiji people it's really no shock at all. Only thing I find shameful is the rep taiji has in the US as "just for health."


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grrrrrrrrrr. grrrrrrrr..
arrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh... grrrrrrrr <PLOP>
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[wisdom mind]

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[This message has been edited by wisdom mind (edited 07-10-2000).]

[eightgates]

I have a friend who learned Bak Mei in college. After he graduated, he had an opportunity to study Taijiquan in Taipei. Several years later, his Bak Mei teacher/friend was passing through town with his wife and they called him up to meet for dinner. Back in the hotel room, the conversation eventually came around to what each was studying at the time. My friend told him that he had been practicing Taijiquan. His teacher laughed at him and said, "Let's see what you can do!" They traded hands and my friend knocked his former teacher onto the nearby bed twice. The wife then commented, "Looks like you have to practice more, dear!" Needless to say, my friend's teacher took up the study of Taijiquan after that.

Of course everything still boils down to the individual. It doesn't seem to be so much a matter of which style is better. Rather, who understands and is able to execute the theory better. There are Bak Mei people who can knock down Taiji players and visa-versa. My friend still practices both his Bak Mei and Taijiquan. He feels they each have something to offer from different viewpoints.

[MoQ]

At first I was thinking "I bet Bak Mei had some difficulty with experienced Tai Chi or Pa Kua!", but the story of beginner Tai Chi against experienced Bak Mei is totally unbelievable.

Most everyone will strike out in the name of ego and state "It's the man not the style" and other's may think it's the style that's important, but it's all just the Kung Fu that is developed over time in concert with guided effort that is important.

In other words(blah,blah), no matter what style a person trains in, no matter what kind of ego or attributes they may possess, before any real skill is achieved...DUES must be payed, not payed off early cuz of raw talent, but premiums payed out over TIME.

Kung Fu people know this, neophytes and faddists, seemingly not...

[eightgates]

Sorry everyone for leaving out the details. I have inadvertently misled everyone with my story and I must apologize.

I totally agree with you, MoQ. There is no substitute for experience. I should have made it clear that my friend was not a beginner at the time. He had also studied Yang and Wu Taijiquan, 7 Star Mantis and Bak Siu Lum and liked to test out his skills. But it wasn't until he went to Taiwan (he spent a year there) that the instruction he got there helped take him to another level of competence. After he returned, he spent a few more years practicing (and fighting) to hone his skills before this incident occurred. Prior to that, he never had a chance playing with his Bak Mei teacher. By the way, they were and still are the best of friends.

I told his story only to give a real life example to answer Curious' question. I'm sorry I flubbed it.

Best to everyone,
byz

[MoQ]

Well that makes a little more sense...thanks [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[mantis108]

Hi byz,

I'm just curious but have no intention to get into another original art vs conceptual (cross trained art) bit.

The student cross trained with other CMA, and then was able to match up with his former teacher and have a suprising result? We know what the student had been doing. He has been training hard. But we know not much about the teacher. Not that I'm taking side or anything, in all fairness, I would think in this case it would seem that it's the people not the styles that count. Perhaps, if we know more of the actual exchanges, we can make a better judgement as to the effectiveness of the styles. I am saying if it is straight Bak Mei vs Straight Tai Chi. But then it is very rare that a open match like such will ever happen.

Peace

Mantis108

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Contraria Sunt Complementa

[eightgates]

Hi Mantis108,

I couldn't say what the teacher had been or not been doing during those several years between the exchange. From what I was given to understand, he had also cross-trained in other arts, but which ones I don't know. I never thought to ask my friend what techiques were employed by either side, I'll try to remember to ask him the next time I see him. On his behalf I'd like to say that he is always quick to point out that there are definitely people out there better than he is. But I think the reason why he was successful is that he is one of those unusually gifted martial artists you run across once in a blue moon. They seem to be able to absorb the essence of whatever they are taught the first time they are shown something. He had the money and opportunity to study with several talented (and some not so talented)teachers and he trained hard with the kind of dedication I wish I had myself. So I agree, if it were someone else, they most probably would not have done as well.

Like you say, it would be rare to unlikely that individuals trained only in Bak Mei and Taijiquan would ever come face to face in a match. (I wonder if this was the case between the contestants mentioned by Curious?) Even then, I would think the factors of quality of instruction, prior matches with other systems, degree of skill, or even luck might affect the outcome. Of course this is all just speculation on my part. I am just a part time practitioner who enjoys learning more about these marvelous arts. I appreciate the insightful comments and contributions of everyone on the list. Thanks everyone!

Best wishes,
byz

[This message has been edited by byz (edited 07-31-2000).]