Gong Fu, Kung fu..

[Daelomin]

This subject has probably been disscussed before, but it has been on my mind for some time now so il start this thread.

How do you translate kung fu, or what does it mean to you?
I think i read that it means something in the lines of "success from hard work". But i would like to hear more about this.

[monk weed]

"success through hard work." To me that is exactly it. You can discribe just about anything you try hard to succeed at as kung fu wether it be music, art or anything else including fighting skills.

[Daelomin]

I have noticed in chineese martial arts an attitude that states that its the way that is important, not the end. So wouldnt the concept of kung fu be a bit out of place in chineese martial arts??

I hope im making sense here.

[Former castleva]

Nice to see some more Fins around here.
And now to the point,

"I have noticed in chineese martial arts an attitude that states that its the way that is important, not the end. So wouldnt the concept of kung fu be a bit out of place in chineese martial arts??"

I can´t see exactly why.
I think it could be said that is the journey which is important and brings all of the emotion and experiences while end is more like a destination where we will eventually be sent to...I hope I´m making sense here.
Translations vary considering this is chinese but "technique","energy-time","hard work" (one of those more popular translations) and "skill gained from hard work" which pretty much support´s monk weed´s explanation.
Things being like that,kung-fu/gong-fu is a broad description generally accepted in western regions and around the world.
"Wushu"=martial art is a more specific way to describe chinese martial arts but can easily be linked to olympic/sport related,modern CMA which I think,has been also described as "huafa" meaning "flowery fist" or something like that.
Other names could include "kuatsu" which also relates to chinese MA,but which is probably rare.
After all,these are just words used to describe something greater.

I might still like to point out that "local" terms like "kung-fu" which is chinese,is logically best used to describe Chinese martial arts.Besides this,it can be more appropriate to talk about arts with their related names:-

kung-fu/wushu etc.=indirect chinese terms used to describe CMA.
budo="martial way","way of seizing weapons"=japanese term used to describe japanese arts (it won´t probably harm at all to mention that term "budo" may be used loosely to describe nearly any art(ist)-"budoka"=martial artist (best used to describe a practitioner of JMA)
mudo="korean martial arts".This is my own understanding of this word and I believe it to be decent.
Some words in japanese and korean are similar,like "do"=way.
Again,a more specific term solely for korean arts.
Young korean martial art of "han moo (mu) do" basically means the same.

[monk weed]

Former castleva said it perfectly. It's all about the "journey." I think the term kung fu is misused in martial arts anyway. The term became popular in the U.S.thanks to Hollywood back in the "60's and "70's and is now generally used to discribe chinese martial arts.

[Daelomin]

Is kung fu the "grand achivement", one after you have nothing left to achive? Or could it be the skill that you have aquired until now with your hard work?

[Former castleva]

Cheers monk weed.


Basically you will keep learning until the day you die,realizing this there is always more to learn.
To keep learning sincerely might be the grand achievement.
Great "masters" are unlikely to lay back on their achievements.

[Sho]

FYI: "Do" means "way" also in Cantonese ("dao" in Putonghua) which is also used in Li Xiaolong's fighting style, however his purpose wasn't to teach Chinese way of fighting, Japanese way of fighting or anything to that extent.

Kungfu is an excellent term to be used for martial arts, because ultimately a martial art becomes a way of life. Kungfu is linked to one's way of life, thus there is no line of separation in between, because they both are counted as one.

According to western norms, posession of great amout of knowledge is considered wisdom. Taoism interprets wisdom to be merely one's knowledge. It says that the amount of knowledge stored in one's mind isn't the key to wisdom, because one has to be able to apply that knowledge to whatever purpose. Same in martial arts; you train hard in martial arts to be able to apply that knowledge without actually thinking about it. Martial arts skills should be executed in a subconscious state of mind. This is what for example Jeet Kune Do is about. It is not the amount of techniques that make you a good fighter, it's your way to apply those techniques when it comes to that situation. What use is there of a thousand techniques if you do not know how to use them properly, by properly I mean that you really do not need to think about how to put those techniques into practice. This is where hard work, kungfu, comes into play. We practice and practice it so intensively that it eventually becomes second nature. The achievement is when you no longer have to think about your actions, the actions perform by themselves. This is the core understanding of the Tao.

[PaulLin]

It was so odd to hear the way Western people talking about Chinese terms.

KongFu, is a folk way of calling Martial Art. It was originally using in all skillful techniques that achieved throgh the long time of practicing. Then it was commonly used to discribe Martial Arts since that is what makes it work in real application. However, the Westerners know Kong Fu more since the first immigrants that showed Westerners Martial Arts are the town folks, not city people.

I would disagree with WuShu=Martial Art idea. The Communist China claim that is the proper term. However, in words WuShu has metioned nothing about art. Wu=Martial, and Shu=techniques.

Taiwan has once use a more city people term, KouShu, which means National Technique.

If you want the words in Chinese of Martial Arts, it should be WuYi. However, that term mostly used in writting, but rarely in talking.

One interesting thing about the tradition of Martial Arts is that the way GM was treated. Most GM of CMA came from a time where China was invated with external millitary forces. Most of them are teaching martial arts as to strengh the Chinese people against forign forces. That is very opposing to Western learners. If these GM knows that Western people learned the arts, they will not be happy since they see Westerners as part of external invition. Well, several generation passed, things are opened up. But there are still many old rules that metioned the tudi of the style must loyal to the Chinese people. And that sees so weird for Westeners to following such anti-Westerners system.

[David Jamieson]

The wests adoption of chinese martial arts has definitely led to adaptation.

I don't believe that martial arts of any culture "belongs" to any culture. That was the entire point of bringing them out into the general public. East and West.

peace

[Former castleva]

Yeah.
Even though China has kept it´s ways for a long time we still cannot deny western influence which west had on China.
This even concerns philosophy,to a certain point.
Kind of sharing with each other I think.

[GeneChing]

...on who I'm talking to. I even say it differently depending on who's listening. For people who have no interest in MA and are just making conversation (like the relatives I spent thanksgiving with) I enunciate the K. For people who are more Chinese, so to speak, I try to get the tones right with more of the g/k sound.

As for what it means, again, that depends on who's listening. For instance, for all of you here on the forum, I'd define it asthis.

[Ray Pina]

Is that an insult, or a well placed/timed ad?

Happy Holidays

[Former castleva]

Gene,you are flattering us...at least a considerable amount of members...in a considerable way.

I´d guess most up-to-date spelling for KF would be;
"gung-fuu" or maybe like "gang-fuu",hard to say which vocals most of the pressure is laid on.


"ballet fu" is certainly wrong.

While "wushu",generally speaking might be an insult for some...

[GeneChing]

ef: No insult at all. Strictly flattery (and business )

fc: Actually the UN says it's all pinyin, so the official UN spelling is "gongfu." But then, if president Bush doesn't listen to the UN, I don't see why I should. No way am I changing the name of the magazine. Carradine didn't star in a TV show called gongfu (and while I love the old Bruce Lee fans who stick with gung fu, Bruce died before he could make that spelling stick.) FWIW, I wrote a short bit on our choice of spellings in our anniversary issue

So back to the original question, to me kungfu is like qi - we shouldn't seek to define it in western terms. That kills a bit of its spirit. Kungfu is a constant exploration and my own personal definition is ever changing. Take this really crappy post-holiday analogy for example: if you asked me what state-of-the-art effects were some 20+ years ago, I'd have said Star Wars. Today, well, I guess I can still say Star Wars, but it would be the latest episode. In the same way, Kungfu continues to evolve yet remain constant.