Voodoo, Neijia, And Magik

[brucelee2]

Just finished reading Urban Voodoo, a beginner's guide to afro-caribbean magic (Black and Hyatt)- thought it'd be cr*ppy, turns out to be really good. Wondering if anyone out there has any experience with voodoo or santeria, might care to speak about it, its effectiveness, and if they see any relationship between it and the neijia, or the chi built up by the neijia. I know Erle Montaigue has written that the chi built up through the practice of neijia, fasting, and sexual continence leads to manifestation. A couple of cool quotes from the book-

"Unlike Christianity and your science, Voodoo doesn't divorce spirit from matter. The world is still alive for us. For you it is dead."

"In Voodoo we become the spirit. We are taken over by God. We become one. You and your God live far from each other."

Blacktaoist, Maoshan- I think you guys have written that you're into your African heritage- any experience with this stuff? Anyone else?

[doug maverick]

i don't where to begin lets start with your remark to B.T. maoshan
i'm not speaking for them but you think just because there into there heratage they run around chopping off the heads of chickens and sh*t, and then comparing voodoo and internal kung fu it's cardinal minded thinking like that,that has church goers calling martial arts evil and the work of the devil, you should really think before you right theres nothing magical about chi it's just your god giving energy harnessed and trained, don't confuse it with magic powers.
well i'm finished i hope in the future you'll watch what you write before putting your theories(if you could call them that) on a post.
sorry for the harsh words but being african american and "in" to his heritage i found it offensive .

[count]

I know you see a connection here with internal martial arts somewhere, so I'll be following this thread with interest. I'm not sure I do but I guess I can relate certain energies and focus with other disciplines and mysticisms I have read about.

I haven't read the book you're speaking of. I did find what BlackTaoist had to say in this post on his websites forum very interesting. You might also find it interesting what he has to say about Ifa or Santeria and looking at other cultures belief systems.

He told me he is not posting here at KFO anymore so you might post over at his site. Of course, I can't believe he won't be posting here but he has proven me wrong before so it won't be the first time.

[azwingchun]

I don't study Voodoo, though read a few things on it years ago. The reason for my post is, I have noticed certain people who get to a certain level in Kung Fu and quit due to their church beliefs. Their church had told them that this 'chi (energy)', meditation stuff is Voodoo, black Magic of the devil etc. I have seen this on 3 different occasions. I just find it funny how certain groups few martial arts differently. Some teachers even go so far as to advertise their schools as 'Christian Martial Arts'.

[brucelee2]

Doug Maverick,

1)No offense was intended to you, BT, or Maoshan. According to this book voodoo and orumba (sp?) are practiced by a large part, if not a majority, of people in Africa.

2)In order to find it offensive, there would have to be something 'wrong' with voodoo- that may be your opinion, I do not necessarily share it nor is it necessarily accurate. For example, if I had asked them if they liked food 'x' which is eaten by many Africans you would probably not get offended. Anyway, I'm not getting into a racism debate here- I'm not interested.

3) I asked if anyone saw a relationship between neijia-voodoo or chi-voodoo. I think there may be one. It is a valid question. I am not constrained by your definition of chi, voodoo, or neijia. This is a discussion forum.

4) I just looked at that thread on the Black Taoist's forum and apparently he is a practitioner of Santeria which, according to this book, is an offshoot or descendant of Voodoo. There you have it.

Thanks to others for your replies. Sam Wiley, I know you like this stuff, where are you? ; ) Peace

[Esteban]

Hi Brucelee2,

I've got no idea about a connection between the "internal" martial arts and "voodoo." I think, though, that if you changed Voodoo to "beliefs of African origin," then I think the best case for seeing the similarities might be in capoeira. At some point in most serious capoeristas careers, they ally themself with a protective deity, or orisha. BTW, yeah, it does prevent some religious people to avoid these arts, and even yoga. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, are usually taught to avoid these practices because they allow the individual to be inhabited by spirits --something that's somewhat encouraged in voodoo. Another btw, there's not one brand of voodoo: (obeah, Santeria --which was really a perjorative term-- pocomania, macumbah, candomble, Palo Mayombe, Lukumi, La Regla and others). All of them are African originated, but they're Americanized with indigenous (Native American) and European (Catholic) elements. Anyway, as far as martial arts, of course there have been religious elements included in the martial arts. Capoeira is the present example, but it's also true of Filipino and Indonesian martial arts, as well as that of First Nation's people. The Boxers in China though their gongfu could protect them from bullets. The Ghost Dancers thought they could do the same. And, in Jamaica, "Maroon Nanny" --female obeah woman and leader of a rebellion against the British-- is said to have been able to "bounce back bullet 'pon man." She has a statue in Heroes Square in Kingston. I'm not saying she had that ability, only that these connections are all over. Well, in Brazil, and for capoeira, the religions are Macumba and Candomble. The divinities are basically the same, and so is the fact that most of the practitioners are also Catholics. Forgive me for getting so far away from your original question. The easiest way to compare the internal Chinese arts and other martial/religious/philosophical systems, imho, is to look at their descriptions of the fundamental forces behind "life". In many African originated religious systems, the Chinese term for "Qi" might be translated to the concept of "Axe" (Ah-shay). Personally, I think finding out what that means is about as simple as defining "spirit" or "qi" or "prana"... but I think they all come down to the same thing. And that's my lecture for today

Regards,
Esteban

[brucelee2]

OK, here are a couple of quick thoughts, don't have much time now but...

First however, BTaoist does say in that post "Ifa/Santeria deals alot with chi , meditation,....and its too deep for me to get into here..."

Secondly, I work/worked with a Sorcerer who emphasized chi alot in regards to manifestation and spiritual/personal development. Specifically, he would often seem to equate it with one's 'energetic capacity.' More chi= more energetic capacity for....

It is like a battery or well, metaphorically speaking. The greater the chi,the more energy or water it can hold. What is done with the energy or water is a different matter. I believe that one of the most powerful methods of cultivating this kind of chi is the proper practice of the internal martial arts. My thoughts, though not yet exact, run along the lines of the type of chi that is developed through the practice of internal martial arts lends itself also to/improves/facilitates many other things- health, sports,.... I think that quite possibly one of the things it lends itself to most, or facilitates, potentially, is the practice of Magik. This is not even considering the development of the Intent as a result of the practice of the internal martial arts as well. I guess some of the types of things I'd hoped to discuss are;

1)In attracting a powerful spirit for aid or acting as a channel, how would being a neijia practitioner/having superior chi mitigate/affect that?

2)What difference in success would a neijia practitioner experience in attempts to 'cast spells', do magik, manifest, etc.... from a 'normal' person?

3)What difference in 'magikal protection' from evil spirits/'spells' might a neijia practitioner enjoy from a 'normal' person, if any?

4)I do think that there is something 'occult' about the practice of the neijia. After all, chi- you cannot see it but you can feel it- its a bit like God in that way, isn't it? And if there is nothing mysterious or magical about chi and its totally scientifically explainable than whose to say the same can't be said about Voodoo/black magic? Or anything for that matter?

that's it for now-

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In my own experiences i believe there is no "magic".. only natural events we don't yet fully understand.. Too often we confuse the ritual with the goal it is intended to move us toward.. rituals are like words, they point to something.. many cultures, many beliefs.. but i sense that it is just differing perspectives of the same thing, and since this is a site for Chinese Martial Arts, i will call it "Chi".. but, in the english, it would be energy.. basic universal energy, the stuff that the universe is made of.. Our, excuse me, "my" goal is to try to expand my awareness and understanding of this energy (Chi).. to use it to improve my life and the lives of others.. a portion of which is self-defense..

Energy is, by its nature, dual (pos/neg.. yin/yang.. light/dark).. yet, it has no inherent value such as good/bad, right/wrong.. WE are the ones that assign value.. and so we see various cultural influences (and subsequent bickerings) regarding the use of that energy.. i think if we scrape off all the labels and rituals we will find a common substance.. if we focus on the usefulness of it, examine how it best serves us and our society, it may someday be common knowledge rather than "hocus-pocus" or sorcery..

As far as the Martial Arts, we can each research the mountains of evidence of QiGong healing, it works.. so then, why couldn't it also supplement martial arts? it is simple energy, we are the ones that use it, and we can use it how we choose.. Energy (Chi) is like the raw material of the universe, we are the crafters..

Be well... (and, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain")

[Firebird]

Hi BruceLee2,
when I read your text, I can see you don't have much experience with magic.
Magic Power or what You called magic chi; is completle different from Chi Kung or Neija.
On higher level with Neija, you could have experiences and abilitys which are diffrent from normal Chi Kung practice.
If You train daily Neija; You could better understand Feng Shui and Geomantic Knowledge.
But;
if You practice real magic, there you can see , that Magic Power is a completly different energy.
To get Magic Power You don't need Neija or Chi Kung.
For Vodoo Puppets-Magic and rituals, You need the knowledge how to handle with the puppets and the rituals , and what is the function of the rituals( bloody chicken,etc. ...)and if you have problems there -- Neija,Chi Kung, Medidation doesn't helps there.
Maybe this sounds strange, but if you realy practice and have a good teacher, you will understand it.

[Ray Pina]

I'm a Cuban America, and while I was raised Catholic, I have a few Cuban friends from the old neighborhood who have parents into Santeria.

You read the book so I'm sure you know about rituals and stuff.

This is my take: Your mind and focus can affect the world around you. Wether praying to God, St. Stephen, The Jade Emperor or a candle, you are emitting energy waves, vibrations, out into the world which will be received by the world and have an effect whatever it is.

Ever think of someone and then they call you? Ever turn on your car radio and the song that just happens to be on hits close to home.

Is that coincidence? I personally don't belive in coincidence.

It is all happening right now. We are all equal parts of the whole: Universe (one song).

That's just my two cents, and you wouldn't be the first to call my crazy. But I'm happy and I enjoy this life experince.

As far as how this relates to internal MA I wouldn't know, because I'm not internal yet. But I see ones focus as relavent to all things.

Peace

PS
Notice how I've been staying clear of any controversial MA topics. Quite proud opf my self.