Ultimate Grappling thread

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I love the half guard!

basic pass. (assume your right leg is captured by his right)

1) Take your left arm and put it under his neck. This will prevent him from getting under your arm and sweeping you.

2)Put your right hand on his left knee. Bring your left knee up between your bodies to help w/ leverage. Use hand to push out and away on left knee to create a gap. pull your leg out quickly. Keep hand on knee so that he doesn't just bring left knee over you for mount.

You'll usually come out in side control, but I like to go directly for the mount from here.

Lovely. I must try it.

Last night we were working on hooking sweep and trying not to get caught in the half-guard after it. So, we were dropping our knee (of the hooking leg) out to the side of the opponent and then shooting our hips forward to escape the foot. Dunno the name of the position we got to next but I remember using it in judo as a pin (right hip on ground, right leg extended to around 10 o'clock - relative to opponent's head - right arm around neck, left arm holding opponent's sleeve, wide base). And from there we switched base into side control.

Gee, I hope that made sense.

[ShaolinTiger00]

judo hold = kesa gatame

[ShaolinTiger00]

Last night we were working on hooking sweep and trying not to get caught in the half-guard after it.

I'm assuming you meant a footsweep. (A hook sweep is usually done from the guard) and I'll also assume that since you were landing in a half guard that it was an inside sweep. (ouchi-gari or kosoto gari)

My question. Why are you falling down after the sweep? I know it happens but its because you weren't maintaining your balance thru the footsweep.

I love ouchi, but I use it as a setup for other throws because as you know against grapplers, you can end up in their guard, 1/2 guard.

[SevenStar]

ttt for lowlynobody

[Lowlynobody]

Cheers Sevenstar.

This is a carry on from the slamming in the guard thread - what I'm after is a discussion regarding takedowns from standing, where you go from there and defences against said takedowns.

So if one of the experienced ground players wants to get the ball rolling with how they would go about your basic shoot and how they go about using the sprawl to stop the shoot, that should get the ball rolling.

It would be nice to see people that study different styles contributing with a view to learning. It is yet to be seen wether that will happen or not.


Lowlynobody.

[SevenStar]

That's what I liked about this thread in particular and why I like to bring ut up all the time - it's one of the few where that actually happens. I think there may have been a description of both a sprawl and shoot earlier in this thread - I'll check, and if not, one of us will post one.

[FatherDog]

I'm awful at describing this sort of thing, but I'll give it a shot... the double leg.

Starting in a wrestling stance... Assuming you are right handed, left foot forward and pointing straight at the opponent, right foot back and pointing at a 45 degree angle. Mostly like a boxing stance, but the back is angled forward more.

First, level change. Lower your hips below the level of your opponent's hips. Keep your back straight. This is functionally the same movement as a bob in boxing.

Second, penetration step. Keeping your hips low, step forward with your left leg between your opponent's legs and "rock over" onto the knee (ie, bring the foot forward as far as possible, then continue going forward, coming down on your knee). Ideally, this should bring your shoulder into contact with his midsection. Your hands should immediately go to the back of his knees, your head should be against his left hip. Your right leg should be trailing out behind you; it acts as a stabilizer, preventing you from being pushed over backwards. It is important to keep the back straight during this, with the same form as if you were doing a squat; this is what allows you to carry his weight and stand back up if he sprawls on you. Leaning forward during the shoot is what will cause you to kiss the mat if he sprawls on you.

Third, drive. Swiftly bring your trailing (right, in this example) leg up beside his legs. "Turn the corner" and drive-if you shot in facing twelve o'clock, you want to drive through him towards ten o'clock. Drive off your (formerly) trailing right leg. As his feet leave the ground, sweep his legs to your right; this allows you to have a shot at getting in side control instead of his guard.

A reasonably good pictorial with a realplayer movie is available here:

http://www.lesgutches.com/techniques/double.htm

In this, the object is a pin, so the lead leg is staying in between the legs of the victim. In submission grappling or NHB, both legs would be swept up instead of just one, to get into side control.

[Merryprankster]

Lowlynobody--

It depends. The trick with takedowns is setups. A set up can be contact or it can be foot work. If you are a left lead fighter, for instance, I'll draw within range for a jab so that I can slip and shoot under it for a single leg. I will also follow a kick back in for a takedown. I will shoot under punches and elbows for a takedown. Although situationally dependant, of course, I will shoot any time you try to hit me. Even if I miss, the close distance helps mitigate the impact of your strikes.

The key to finishing any takedown is balance disruption and continuous movement. Balance disruption is important because it robs you of your power. This is something that I got into many arguments about when I first started posting on this board. Any person that tells you that sinking into a stance and redirecting the "energy," of the shot will suffice is ignorant. Not stupid, just ignorant. Sinking into a stance more often than not allows the shooter to take you down with less effort because you just made it easier for the shooter to change angles.

Any person that tells you that hitting somebody on the back of the neck or elbowing to the spine or kneeing people in the head is a good idea when somebody shoots is also ignorant. When your balance is disrupted, you have no power. Your attacks will be annoying and nothing more.

When somebody is trying to take you down, the first thing you must do is attend to your balance. I realize that many people's first response is to try a strike of some sort. This will almost invariably be a bad idea. The successful stand-up fighters in MMA events all have one thing in common--they have great takedown defenses, and they ABANDON the idea of hurting the other guy until they are no longer in danger of being taken down--when they regain their balance and are not in trouble, they start right back banging.

I cannot emphasize this enough--do NOT waste time trying to injure your opponent if they have put you in danger of being taken down. Your priority is to defend the takedown. Everything else is secondary.

Sprawls are used to stop leg attacks. Essentially, when an opponent goes to your legs, you throw your hips and legs back and out of the way, placing all your weight on the shooter's body, round about between the shoulder blades. Your arms need to be somewhere in front of his shoulders, not around his waist, although there are some defenses from there. You do not want to be in a position where he can suck your leg or legs into his body. From this position, I can attain a dominant ground position to work for submission/pounding, simply pound from there, or push off and stand up to deliver a beating.

I personally don't care what takedown I use. I just want to get you to the ground. I'll worry about the rest later.

Here is a general set of rules for shooting and takedown defenses:

Shooting:
1. Set-up and close the gap.
2. Take the opponents balance.
3. Keep moving.

sprawling
1. Attend to your balance first. Don't strike until out of immediate danger
2. Weight heavy on their shoulder blades.
3. Legs and hips down and away
4. Some part of your arms between your body and their forward movement.

There are many many takedowns and the sprawl is only the appropriate defense for leg attacks. Clinch attacks are a completely different animal, although using some of the same principles.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I'm assuming you meant a footsweep. (A hook sweep is usually done from the guard) and I'll also assume that since you were landing in a half guard that it was an inside sweep. (ouchi-gari or kosoto gari)

My question. Why are you falling down after the sweep? I know it happens but its because you weren't maintaining your balance thru the footsweep.

I wasn't falling.

The way we were taught the sweep:

1. wait for the opponent to stand on one-leg getting ready to pass.
2. heavy leg, pivot on right hip (if opponent stands on his right leg)
3. hook inside of opponent's right with your left foot.
4. sweep

After the sweep I was getting caught in the half guard.


I really need to work on explaining myself better!

[Lao_Peng_You]

Merry,
In regards to sinking when having your legs attacked is right on. One thing that we CMA should know if we are not ignoring the facts is that you want to uproot your opponent, and take them out of their element, not the other way around. This is basic CMA strategy. Leaving yourself in position to be taken to the ground is as you put it "ignorant", as the CMAist is now out of his element. A stance like the horse stance is not stable in all directions, so it is easy to uproot for a shooting opponent. The better idea to someone who shoots at you is do what you need to do in order to gain position like sprawl, then circle, pick targets, and then reassess as the dynamic of the fight changes. I think patience and a certain kind of relaxing are important. If you can aggrivate someone who wants to take it to the ground by not playing his game, you have a great chance to finish by luring them into your game. I know grapplers have a preferred distance, so I try to control that distance with good footwork. I try to control angles, and strike medium and close to painfull targets. I work on throws but only if I'm positive of a finishing move is there, so I'll use those too if I have postion.

Pain tolerance can be a factor for the ground fighter, as if they risk a lot in order to gain their position they can quickly end things as well. However, if you are an accurate and hard striker, you can reduce the amount of time of the fight through a knock out or a standing submission.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Tao - It ok. I understood you fine. You just described an ouchi-gari (large inner reap)

If I can help you..



1. wait for the opponent to stand on one-leg getting ready to pass.
2. heavy leg, pivot on right hip (if opponent stands on his right leg)
3. hook inside of opponent's right with your left foot.
4. sweep.

1. Don't think of him as standing on leg. You need to practice this technique going full speed and live with a resisting opponent. you'll catch that "heavy leg" as he sets it down. timing is always important with foot sweeps.

2. As you turn your hips, Its very important that your upper body is pulling him towards his back right corner.

3. "hook" is such a vauge term. make sure that as you reap this leg out that your leg never leaves the floor. Your big toe should remain in contact (brushing) the floor at all times. Making sure you reap the ankle is the most important part. Where the ankle goes, the leg follows

4. As you sweep you must force him to that corner with force. really set him up hard so that he can't counter. He should be too focused on the fall. (falling backward almost always shuts down any offensive thought you had. the brain screams "PROTECT")

[Lowlynobody]

I'm awful at describing this sort of thing, but I'll give it a shot... the double leg.

Thanks FatherDog - I found it easy to follow. One thing you mentioned that I wasn't aware of (seeing as I had yet to look into this sort of thing) was that when the shooter drives he drives to a 45 angle. What I find interesting about this is that in YKM we initiate many attacks using 45's. When doing a circle step in front stance the rear leg comes in to the front foot on a 45 (so your in neutral stance) and then circles back out on a 45. This takes your centre away from the person and then cuts back in to their centre (ie where they can be off balanced). This also takes away one or two of their weapons (one arm and/or one leg).

Thanks for the clip. I'll check it out a little later when I get home.

For those who know what a Hakka (more specificly a YKM or Bak Mei) front stance looks like - would this stance stop you from getting a double leg? ie only allow you to reach the front leg and thus go for a single leg shoot?

What I think is you might be able to but you will have to come from side on to get around the front foot (which is turned in at a 45 angle and bent so that the knee is in line with the toes). I say this thinking that you are trying to get your hands behind my knees.

If you came front on your arm going for the rear leg would be almost fully extended (depending on size of course) and wouldn't have the power that you would if you had both my legs close to your body. You also will not be able to get your penetrating step into my centre again unless you come at me from side on?

Again I think this is accomplished by having the front foot turned in allowing me to have my knee where you would want to be steping into my centre. Ah I how I love the basics

I'll get to where I'm going with this after I get some replies.

Merry I'll get to your excelent post after work. You talk a lot of sense.


Thanks guys.

Lowlynobody.

[Merryprankster]

Going into the front stance causes me to switch off to a single. I'm not going to bother reaching for the far knee. That's the only effect. Lowering into a stance is going to get you taken down, pretty much.

A rule of thumb is if they are square on, double. If they are staggered, single.

[Lowlynobody]

Lowering into a stance is going to get you taken down, pretty much.

Your associating sinking with stationary or immobile? If that is the case getting your hips bellow the other person so you can shoot would make you move to slow and allow the other person to lay a few on you. Though this isn't the case.

One of the reasons to do stance training is it allows you to stay lower while remaining mobile.

This may be a stupid question but is a single the same as a double except both hands are used on one leg?

Well I'm off to train.

[SevenStar]

it's not necessarily sinking that makes you immobile, but the fixing - you are less mobile in your front stance than I am when I sink to shoot in. even though your leg is back, part of the beauty of takedowns is that it's usually not very difficult to change the angle of it.

The single leg is versatile. It can be done from the inside or outside, and the actual take down can be done from various angles and heights, could be sweeping, etc.

here's one variation:

http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/techniques/singlelegtakedown/