Ultimate Grappling thread

[Lowlynobody]

it's not necessarily sinking that makes you immobile, but the fixing - you are less mobile in your front stance than I am when I sink to shoot in

What is your reasoning behind that? Out of curiosity what styles have you studied?

If you are fixing and grounding and being rigid in your stances in a fight before and after you strike/attack/deffend then you are using your stances wrong or you have not been taught how to use them in a fight. Same goes if you are not light on your feet when you move.

In that case then you ass is going to the ground.

[Lowlynobody]

I think there is an element of timing between relaxed/fluid/soft and when to be hard/strike. In YKM this is one of the fundamental theories. It is what the name of the system means.

So if you think I'm going to stand there and be fixed in a rigid stance and try and react from there when you shoot then you have the wrong picture. There are also several different ways of moving outside of half and full stepping such as tiger step and shrimp step. Some of which you should be able to at least move in the 8 directions at any time at speed. The shrimp step is a bit different I believe.

Although situationally dependant, of course, I will shoot any time you try to hit me. Even if I miss, the close distance helps mitigate the impact of your strikes.

This is assuming the person doesn't have short power. Again here I train in a system where the ideal distance from the opponent is where ever you can get a bridge. That means from my wrist of my striking hand (with elbows pointing at the ground) to my guard hand at my elbow which is about 4 inches from my chest. Do you think a system all about fighting at this close in range (and also basically a means to generate ging) would not be able to cause serious damage when your close enough for me to headbut you without moving? If it can't then I should stop now. But I know it can.

Balance disruption is important because it robs you of your power. This is something that I got into many arguments about when I first started posting on this board. Any person that tells you that sinking into a stance and redirecting the "energy," of the shot will suffice is ignorant. Not stupid, just ignorant. Sinking into a stance more often than not allows the shooter to take you down with less effort because you just made it easier for the shooter to change angles.

It is true what you say about balance disruption and power. Again though I think you might find there are exceptions (rare as that might be in this case). There is a method to generate ging that you can do so from any position, even laying down, etc. I do not have this so in my case yes off balance means little power.

Sinking and re-directing "energy" will not work (unless the person shooting sucks or the person re-directing is very good) but moving, redirecting, and sinking might work a bit better? You can't change angles if your not in control of your own momentum/balance.

I must say your post was excellent, Merry. As I don't have the ability to really damage while off balance I will take your advice. Thanks for outlining some of the thinking behind the actual mechanics.

There are many many takedowns and the sprawl is only the appropriate defense for leg attacks. Clinch attacks are a completely different animal, although using some of the same principles.

I am not so concerned about clinch attacks as I am used to that sort of fighting range as mentioned above. But I would like to hear some basic clinch attacks that you have or like?


Lowlynobody.

[Merryprankster]

Lowlynobody,

Lowering your stance and center of gravity is a great first defense for throwing, and many clinch defenses start with the idea of sinking your weight as you scoot around; however, it does not provide adequate defense to a leg attack because it has done little to protect your hips and legs. You can't do footwork in any meaningful way if somebody has your leg, no matter how good your footwork is. You're getting pushed and pulled around and generally tangled up. There are ways to escape, but I wouldn't call any of them "footwork," and certainly not in any sense that connotes true mobility.

When a wrestler changes levels to shoot, he's not changing levels, then shooting. He's changing his level as he shoots. This is part of the "rock-over," step father dog mentioned--you will also hear it referred to as a penetration step. Regardless, the shooter is already closing the gap as his level changes. His motion is already committed to attack. You can change levels as part of a set up to attack, to elict a response from the opponent--maybe I WANT you to punch me or to drop your level partly too--but changing levels to defend a shot, while part and parcel, is generally not adequate once the attacker has comitted. If you do, you'll get dumped on your ass 99% of the time.

If the front stance is forward weighted, then your leg is now a post I can pivot around and take an angle you are weak at. If your stance is back weighted, then I can pick the leg up and dump you. If it's neutral, it won't be for long--I mean, you're not just going to stand there, and every movement requires loading or unloading of your feet.

This is why it's so important to get your hips and legs down and away, with your weight on top of him. It deprives the shooter of his ability to manipulate you at his leisure. If he's fighting your wieght and the strength of your thigh, it makes it tough to hold on.

[Lowlynobody]

Lowering your stance and center of gravity is a great first defense for throwing, and many clinch defenses start with the idea of sinking your weight as you scoot around; however, it does not provide adequate defense to a leg attack because it has done little to protect your hips and legs. You can't do footwork in any meaningful way if somebody has your leg, no matter how good your footwork is. You're getting pushed and pulled around and generally tangled up. There are ways to escape, but I wouldn't call any of them "footwork," and certainly not in any sense that connotes true mobility.

You are certainly correct. Footwork would be useless after they have the leg.

When a wrestler changes levels to shoot, he's not changing levels, then shooting. He's changing his level as he shoots. This is part of the "rock-over," step father dog mentioned--you will also hear it referred to as a penetration step. Regardless, the shooter is already closing the gap as his level changes. His motion is already committed to attack. You can change levels as part of a set up to attack, to elict a response from the opponent--maybe I WANT you to punch me or to drop your level partly too--but changing levels to defend a shot, while part and parcel, is generally not adequate once the attacker has comitted. If you do, you'll get dumped on your ass 99% of the time.

Again thanks for great info.

If it's neutral, it won't be for long--I mean, you're not just going to stand there, and every movement requires loading or unloading of your feet.

It is 50/50 weighted in my case. Your talking about shifting weight right? To go forward you must first go backwards, right? But is you can do that backwards movement "internaly" ie with no "external" indication that you have done so then you can keep your weight centred. Now you may call that mumbo jumbo but I it is probably the best I can describe it without showing you in person. Another thing that may help is that when I step my foot is gliding about a mm above the ground or in some cases still touching. That way I can shift weight at a very high speed.

**** it! I need someone to train with that knows this stuff, in a no ego environment (I hate ego. All of the **** that happens in the world is from people interacting. If you took most of the ego out of the interaction alot of stupid **** wouldn't happen). Does anyone know if Serpent is into the ground game?

[Merryprankster]

Correct--footwork is useless after they grab the leg. So you need to keep them off the leg. Consequently, lowering your stance as a defense isn't good enough because they are going to get hold of the leg--you have to move it out of the way somehow, AND prevent their forward drive at the same time. (AHA!)

I have offered before that a "buckback," sprawl is usually what KFO'ers are really after--the hands are placed on the shooter's shoulders as they come in, and you "glide back" without really doing a full on sprawl. However, you cannot always get this, and you really need to drop into a full on sprawl if they manage to hook a leg.


When I mean loading and unloading, I'm talking about a barely perceptable weight change. I'm going to feel it--you MUST push off something in order to move. It's just a simple fact. If you want to move your right foot, you have to plant your left to some degree to move your right foot. A millimeter off the ground--or even a sliding glide step, is plenty of weight off that foot (and on the left)for me to do something. Judoka use this all the time with footsweeps. They aren't looking for a big reaction--just that slight load and unload that simply must happen if you are to move--then, BAM, you're on your ass It's a thing of great beauty.

Check below for great examples of how Chuck Liddell keeps an arm or shoulder between his body and opponent when they try to shoot. You don't get to see a full on sprawl here, but this is HIS highlight clip, not the other way round

http://www.bullshido.us/dl_showall.a...ghlight+Videos

[Lowlynobody]

I have offered before that a "buckback," sprawl is usually what KFO'ers are really after--the hands are placed on the shooter's shoulders as they come in, and you "glide back" without really doing a full on sprawl. However, you cannot always get this, and you really need to drop into a full on sprawl if they manage to hook a leg.

Shrimp step could be applicable here. It is a backwards movement of about a foot or two where you shift backwards without lifting your feet. Just push off from the front foot and slide backwards. Or Tiger step if you need alot more room. This is where you bring your front foot to your rear foot and you skip your rear foot back (very fast charge and retreat).

I have been thinking about something similar to this but involving striking (hey why not? ) It would work if you could keep the distance and you leg wasn't already taken a hold of. Maybe I can get some video together instead of trying to describe techniques that your not going to get through words....

Correct--footwork is useless after they grab the leg. So you need to keep them off the leg. Consequently, lowering your stance as a defense isn't good enough because they are going to get hold of the leg--you have to move it out of the way somehow, AND prevent their forward drive at the same time. (AHA!)

What you said above is along the lines that I'm trying to get out =)

Though I'm not sure if your seeing the fact that I'm not going to do one thing to defend against the shoot. I'm going to do a combination of things, depending..... eg Move back or move forward on a 45. Lower my centre. Use my stance to attack you balance. Strike your arms as they come into range (if I get a bridge I can control you - stick, follow, redirect, destroy, cross it to the body, etc) Claw the arm(s), pivit, turn, lock my hips and throw, etc.

Then I guess it comes down to who has trained harder at what they do. Did someone say that before?

Thanks for the link. If you have some spare time and your interested check this out - Yau Kung Mun

There you can find pics and vids that will give you maybe an idea of what I do.


Lowlynobody.

[Merryprankster]

Just push off from the front foot and slide backwards. Or Tiger step if you need alot more room. This is where you bring your front foot to your rear foot and you skip your rear foot back (very fast charge and retreat).

Now we're talking. Now, put your hands on his shoulders and you have a buckback, in essence! The thing is, you need to put your body more "in line," with the motion of his shot, than you might expect, because just moving backwards is rarely enough. I can cover more than six feet of distance in one shot--and that's just barely-average-run-of-the-mill-high-school-wrestler-me. Putting your hips and body more in-line with the shot not only helps get your legs out of the way, it allows you, structurally, to ride his momentum backwards and keep your weight off your heels. Weight on your heels is structural death if somebody is shooting on you. It gets you bent over them and you fall over backwards or forwards (more often backwards).

Don't move forward on the shot unless you honestly believe you're going to drop the guy. You're making it easier for him to:

1. Pick up your leg or,
2. Pick YOU completely up and drop you on your head from several feet in the air.

As an attacker in grappling, I want to minimize the space between me and you--I want to drive completely through you, ideally and it's even better if you come forward at the same time because picking you up becomes SO much simpler. Your forward motion, combined with my forward motion, means that I am liable to get deep under your center. This is good for me. I can stand up with you on my shoulders. The landing is not pleasant.

I realize you aren't going to just one thing. But doing a series of "wrong" things isn't very good either. I'm trying hard to outline the principles involved, rather than specific techniques, so you can work with what you already know to find a solution to the issue. It's very probable that some of what you do will work, with some minor modifications. Equally probable is the discovery that some of what has been advertised as a good idea, isn't.

[Lowlynobody]

As an attacker in grappling, I want to minimize the space between me and you--I want to drive completely through you, ideally and it's even better if you come forward at the same time because picking you up becomes SO much simpler. Your forward motion, combined with my forward motion, means that I am liable to get deep under your centre. This is good for me. I can stand up with you on my shoulders. The landing is not pleasant.

By coming forward I don't want to meet you head on. If I did no doubt it would be a case of "down I go". If in moving I can come into the shooter at a 45 his momentum will aid me to place him off balance. Then the result is much the same as an off balance striker. Of course there is a large element of timing in this as there is in all fighting.

I'm trying hard to outline the principles involved, rather than specific techniques, so you can work with what you already know to find a solution to the issue.

And your doing a **** fine job of it.

I Tried out the straightening of the leg in open guard I mentioned the other day and it works if you can get their thigh away from perpendicular to their body (in your direction) which can be managed by giving the knee (or just above it) a good hammer fist (a hammer cuts in and down towards me) and then cutting and sinking from there. What can also help is if I slide my back foot across some and turn my waist away from them.

If you do get a chance please check out the site I posted up. I would like to hear what you think about the techniques and the way they are used, if you have the time.

Oh, I checked out Chuck Liddell. I like his style. Aggressive and he is always moving. What styles has he done?


Lowlynobody.

[Merryprankster]

I know you aren't going to step in straight on, but you are still making it easier for me to grab your leg. The purpose of a shooter's posture, on top of not getting flattened, is to allow them to change angles and to recover from the shot very quickly. I realize this is not obvious to an outside observer, as it looks like the shooter could be pushed over sideways very easily.

Angle change is practiced very often and is vital to certain finishes. It doesn't really matter what angle you come in on--consequently, if you try to come in, my arms will find something UNLESS I miss you completely. I can testify that having been on both the receiving and giving end, it is really hard to completely miss.

I looked at the website you posted, but haven't really had time to formulate any comments, I'm afraid. I am glad that you were able to get what you thought might work, to work. Did you find you needed to straighten the leg first--just curious.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Tao - It ok. I understood you fine. You just described an ouchi-gari (large inner reap)

If I can help you..



1. wait for the opponent to stand on one-leg getting ready to pass.
2. heavy leg, pivot on right hip (if opponent stands on his right leg)
3. hook inside of opponent's right with your left foot.
4. sweep.

1. Don't think of him as standing on leg. You need to practice this technique going full speed and live with a resisting opponent. you'll catch that "heavy leg" as he sets it down. timing is always important with foot sweeps.

2. As you turn your hips, Its very important that your upper body is pulling him towards his back right corner.

3. "hook" is such a vauge term. make sure that as you reap this leg out that your leg never leaves the floor. Your big toe should remain in contact (brushing) the floor at all times. Making sure you reap the ankle is the most important part. Where the ankle goes, the leg follows

4. As you sweep you must force him to that corner with force. really set him up hard so that he can't counter. He should be too focused on the fall. (falling backward almost always shuts down any offensive thought you had. the brain screams "PROTECT")

Thanks for the input. It sounds a little different to what I've been shown. I'll give it a shot next time I roll.

Cheers!

[Lowlynobody]

I know you aren't going to step in straight on, but you are still making it easier for me to grab your leg. The purpose of a shooter's posture, on top of not getting flattened, is to allow them to change angles and to recover from the shot very quickly. I realize this is not obvious to an outside observer, as it looks like the shooter could be pushed over sideways very easily.

Angle change is practiced very often and is vital to certain finishes. It doesn't really matter what angle you come in on--consequently, if you try to come in, my arms will find something UNLESS I miss you completely. I can testify that having been on both the receiving and giving end, it is really hard to completely miss.

Well in that case it would seem the best idea would be for a buckback and then drive forward with strikes once you have stoped the forward motion of the shoot. Esp if he breaks. If he doesn't I should have enough room initialy to produce decent power to make him do so.

I looked at the website you posted, but haven't really had time to formulate any comments, I'm afraid. I am glad that you were able to get what you thought might work, to work. Did you find you needed to straighten the leg first--just curious.

Give us your thoughts if and when you get round to it.

I found that if his leg is at a 90 to his body or closer I needed to use a hammer to the top of the knee or just above it OR a phoenix-eye to the inside of the knee and then sink/slice the forearm accross it. Aother posibility was to step backwards (half or full) while controling the leg and turn away from them (if it was their right leg I'm now facing to their right) and this extended their leg far enough for me to do my thing.

As a note I did the above in a "this is what I'm going to try and do, resist as hard as you can". So I think a short-shock-sudden attack would work even better.

Lowlynobody.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
it's not necessarily sinking that makes you immobile, but the fixing - you are less mobile in your front stance than I am when I sink to shoot in

What is your reasoning behind that? Out of curiosity what styles have you studied?

If you are fixing and grounding and being rigid in your stances in a fight before and after you strike/attack/deffend then you are using your stances wrong or you have not been taught how to use them in a fight. Same goes if you are not light on your feet when you move.

In that case then you ass is going to the ground.

bjj, longfist, judo, karate, muay thai...

in the front stance, you are leaving your leg out there - you are basically asking to have it grabbed. If you're trying to defend a shoot, you're much better off sprawling. If you go into a front stance while someone is shooting, the most common response that I've seen is fixing into the front stance, in hopes that the shooter will only attempt a double leg, and not switch to another takedown. So yes, I meant fixing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
[B]

I Tried out the straightening of the leg in open guard I mentioned the other day and it works if you can get their thigh away from perpendicular to their body (in your direction) which can be managed by giving the knee (or just above it) a good hammer fist (a hammer cuts in and down towards me) and then cutting and sinking from there. What can also help is if I slide my back foot across some and turn my waist away from them.


Oh, I checked out Chuck Liddell. I like his style. Aggressive and he is always moving. What styles has he done?

How much moving was he doing?

Liddell is a kickboxer. I think he took karate when he was younger though.

[Merryprankster]

Chuck Liddell is a Kenpo Karate fellow, I believe, FWIW.

And you are EXACTLY right--buckback, stop his momentum, then come in hammering. Great strategy!

[Lowlynobody]

Sevenstar - I'm in his closed guard so I get a hold of him and pick him up as I stand. He went to open guard and tried to sort of stand up and hook my legs with his so I droped him back down and he pulled me down again with him. From there I got hold of one foot, put it on my hip and hit (with a hammer) just above and to the side of the knee to move his leg/knee away from his body. Got the forearm on and sunk my weight as I sliced it accross the top of the knee.

He didn't move much as I had just put him back down and he was trying to put me back into a closed guard. He probably could have moved more. He did know what I was going to try and do as we played around a bit so I could figure out what I had to do to get it to work.

How would you have moved to try and stop it?