Five elements usage in Bagua

[illusionfist]

Hey folks, i have a question for the bagua venerables. How does the five elements relate to your bagua training and its particular stance on power issuance?

In hsing yi you have the five jings that are indicative of the five element fists and in tai ji you have five particular jings (adhering, following, attaching, etc) along with the five stepping methods. So how does bagua approach it?

Peace

[count]

I started to answer this to you on another forum once but the format of the forum was not to good and I only crashed my computer. Anyway, I'm glad you asked this question because it gives me a chance to dust off this old chart, and start working on my interactive CD again. As you can see, bagua does adhere to the five elements too. The energy of fire rising and water falling etc., are obvious. But my understanding is in all Chinese martial arts whatever terms you are using, ie: Yin Yang, five elements, six harmonies, eight directions, etc., etc. it all adds up and equals zero. Balance is what you find when you put it together.

[illusionfist]

Hey count, thanks for posting. I can't remember if i've asked this before, haha. So how would you say the five elements in bagua are approached in combat and how do they relate to power generation and jing?

I also see on your chart that with some of the elements, they have external and internal sides. So how does that break down?

Peace

[illusionfist]

Hey count, i was checking out your diagram and just wanted to ask a few questions (mainly on the internal and external variations of certain elements found on your chart). With wood you have the internal variation which says "to move", and the external variation is "to penetrate." What are the underlying factors which make both of these wood?

Peace

[The Willow Sword]

i ALWAYS make sure the 5 elements are present whenever I do my bagua.

i make sure that the "Earth" is nice and firm beneath my feet
and that the "Wood" areas i practice in are pleasant to walk a circle in. of course i have plenty of "water" with me to keep the fluids flowing. its been cold these days so i like to build a nice "fire" to keep the arse warm. and finally a nice "metal" sword(to which i think you have seen of mine) to ward off any rabid squirells and such.

SO as you can see,,the 5 elements are ALWAYS present when i do my bagua.

Peace,,,,Many respects,,The Willow Sword

[count]

Hey Illusionfist, thanks for asking such a simple questions. Sorry I haven't been checking the forums much lately. I'm spending more time training than thinking about it these days. Aren't there any other bagua players still on the board or did you all get scarred away or killed by some flame wars or something?

The five elements are in all martial arts just like yin and yang. A more interesting question might be a comparison with the five elements of Xinyi or Tai Chi Chuan or Hung Gar for that matter. I don't know enough about all the systems but I have seen some differences and some similarities. Like beng chuan is wood in Xinyi which reminds me of dragon palm which is wood (internal) in Bagua. This kind of power comes out in a forward direction rising up. The big bird (phoenix/wood/external) power is a similar direction with a more powerful but not as penetrating result in general. The focus is bigger and more external from the waist and limbs and scapula.

As I understand these theories they are all methods of aligning yourself and balancing yourself. Without balance, power is weak physically and emotionally. Yin balances yang in the most basic expression of power. In the six harmonies method the wrists balance the ankles, elbows balance the knees and shoulders balance the hips. In the five elements theory one method is constructive and one method is destructive. They each cancel each other out and add up to zero or perfect balance. Although, after practice yesterday, I am renaming 6 harmonies to 26 harmonies to include my fingers and toes.

In our bagua method the internal elements relate to an internal organ like liver, stomach or lungs and the external elements relate to the outer parts of the body like the head, back or the limbs. As power in bagua comes from full body connection the path of the connection can be drawn through these parts. If the connection is broken or the balance of yin and yang (tension and relaxation) is not correct, the power will be weak.

To identify each element in each application is fairly easy but could be quite time consuming. As an example, start with the first trigram, K'an, which connects with the water element. As I said before, it's really about balance in combat. How you protect yourself when you attack. How you stand when you move. How you block when you strike etc. Water power falls and flows forward with some separating. When you hit with that kind of power, the repercussion can damage the kidneys which is also the organ that relates to the water element. This tells you when you hit, the balance of yin and yang or tension and relaxation, has to be held to get the power in the hit and protect the body. For instance, the hand that blocks and separates needs to come to the back or kidney area to protect while the hand that punches with a falling/dropping power that moves forward should move like water falling and flowing forward. Does this make sense? Maybe some of you other guys would care to contribute an element from your different(?) systems? I'll get back to you with more after our seminar in January on the Xinyi five elements form and five elements chi kung. For a comprehensive explanation of how the five elements relate to Tai Chi Chuan, philosophically, medically and combatively, read The Invisible Web by Dr. Su Yu Chang. He explains in clear terms how each movement in Tai Chi Chuan relates to balance of not just the physical body but also balance of spirit and emotions.

[illusionfist]

Anybody else want to give their take? How bout some other bagua lineages? I know there are some Gao folks lurking around as of late.

Peace

[HuangKaiVun]

A punch is a punch.

A block is a block.

A sidestep is a sidestep.

[Buddy]

Personally I don't give a great deal of thought about these philiosophical concepts in this context. In my opinion the five fists of Xingyi don't need to be defined in these terms. They are directions of issuing power. Bagua, being all about change, uses these directions as well as others.
Buddy

[illusionfist]

Sure these concepts can be described using alternative terminology, but being as that Bagua and its meaning is quite esoteric, i feel that by describing it any other way, or not giving credence to the established methods of description, does a disservice to the art. Seeing as that this cosmology denotes that the five elements come before the trigrams (going from micro to macro), i would say that its a lot more important than just directions and the power that ensues.

Huang- there is no spoon...

Peace

[count]

Originally posted by Buddy
Personally I don't give a great deal of thought about these philiosophical concepts in this context. In my opinion the five fists of Xingyi don't need to be defined in these terms. They are directions of issuing power. Bagua, being all about change, uses these directions as well as others.
Buddy

My point is you don't have to consider these concepts as philosophy at all. They are methods of measuring power in terms of direction and balance. A philosophy might be "I'm trying to return to the state I was in before I was born". Certainly there is a reason these concepts of yin and yang or the five elements are taught within the systems?

A punch is a punch.

A block is a block.

A sidestep is a sidestep.

Maybe on volume one, but on volume two you learn that

a punch is a block,

a block is a punch,

and a sidestep is a kick.

Than wait 'til you see what's on volume 3.

Com'on Huang. How about something a little more thought out than I punch you in the face and you fall down?

[Sam Wiley]

The five elements techniques are all found in Bagua, if you look in the right places and recognize that Bagua's characteristic "flavor" permeates them.

[illusionfist]

So Sam, with the five element techniques, are you saying they are a generic group of techniques that are indicative of five element jing, and that in this instance bagua's flavor just permeates them instead of defining their actual usage given bagua's stance on power issuance?

Care to elaborate a little more?

Peace

[illusionfist]

In some bagua texts, the five elements are only vaguely aluded to. The common denominator between the texts is usually references made to the "four changes." This basically illustrates the way the elements come about after liang yi.

The four changes are-

1. Greater Yin- Water- Kidneys- Rear direction
2. Greater Yang- Fire- Heart- Front direction
3. Lesser Yin- Metal- Lungs- Right direction
4. Lesser Yang- Wood- Liver- Left direction

The only reason why earth itself is not included is because its considered to be part of tai ji (the theory) (expressed by liang yi), so its implied in the overall cosmology. Since tai ji is the root of the others (liang yi, five elements, 8 trigrams), earth is considered to be the root of the other elements.

Compare this with the 5 element usage in Tai Ji (the fist) which is-

1. Metal- Attaching- Step forward
2. Wood- Connecting- Step Backward
3. Water- Adhering- Beware the left
4. Fire- Following- Look to the right
5. Earth- Not losing, not resisting- stable center (central equilibrium)

As you can see they dont jive in some areas. Earth is usually the common one between arts because its always considered to be stable and gives birth/nourishment to the other elements.

Any comments?

Peace

[brassmonkey]

Here's perhaps my favorite Brent Carey post, probably because he puts things more eloquently then I could hope and of course he agree's with me. I think alot of times we tend to gravitate or agree with posters on here with similiar ideas:

"Brent Carey
Member
Posts: 19
(9/24/02 6:08:33 am)
Reply Re: 5 elements
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tcsoldier wrote:

Quote:
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Perhaps Im too novice to this subject to understand this question. To me yin/yang theory, 5 element theory are just ways to understand things. The whole world could be dissected with these theories, does it help you understand taiji better? I'm not sure. My guess would be it makes no difference.
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This is one of the truest statements regarding traditional Chinese principles, that I have seen in a long time. The same statement could be made of western scientific principles. They are only models used to approximately describe our surroundings.

So, it doesn't matter which model we use to describe phenomena; it doesn't change the observable phenomena themselves. What we have to understand is that language is a relatively crude tool, suitable for describing simple principles, but which falls apart when we want to describe something more complex - like quantum mechanics, nirvana, or the taste of cheesecake.

So, to bridge the gap between more complex phenomena and the spoken/written language, we use metaphors, analogies, and logical models. Examples include Newtons laws of motion, 5 element theory, qi/reservoirs/meridians, etc.

None of these models holds up to unlimited scrutiny. Like all analogies, they break down at some point. So, I find it amusing when western physicians dismiss traditional Chinese medicine based on the lack of evidence of physical meridians in the human body, and their lack of coincidence with other known systems. When the western model of physiological understanding is able to diagnose and treat all disorders, and explain all medical phenomena, I will concede bragging rights.

So until someone comes up with a complete explanation that does not fall apart at some point in our scrutiny and practice, then we need to make a clear distinction between the theoretical description and its practical applications.

Do these theories help us understand martial arts any better? I contend that they do. These theories form a logical bridge between fundamental reality and meaningful practice. Let me give an example.

When hitting a golf ball, players are taught to follow through in a full circle. In reality, all motion about an inch past the tee is irrelevant. However, in practice, by focusing on the complete motion, we make subtle adjustments to alignment and power that would fall apart if we stopped immediately after striking the ball. In practice, these subtle principles are too complicated to bother explaining and thinking about.

So, even though we can examine the golf stroke and say that the last half of the stroke appears to be just for show, tradition, or whatever, we can see its practical effects when we take the time to get the complete stroke right.

This may seem like a tangential issue, but it really isn't. A fundamental principle of the golf stroke is this complete circle. We don't bother questioning this principle even though it is not strictly necessary. It is possible to hit the ball quite well using a completely unorthodox stroke. The full circle is just a convenient way to describe the golf stroke so that everything the needs to happen is more likely to happen as it should.

This is true of the traditional Chinese principles we are talking about. For example, does qi exists as some mystical force that has no parallel in Western science? I think not. It is just a convenient way of thinking about energy in the human body. If we think about qi in a traditional way and apply it with traditional means, we get the effects promised. You could also describe the same principles in western terms to a student, and get the same effects. It is just that the traditional terminology and metaphors provide a convenient and more direct description, since the effect and its description are often closely related.


-B "