Five elements usage in Bagua

[Sam Wiley]

I'm a bit out of the loop here. I'm not familiar with the most current arguments or whatever. And recently, I have had trouble explaining things without sounding like I'm preaching some kind of religion.

But I'll give it a shot.

There are only so many ways to move the human body and only so many ways to generate power. There are infinite variations on core methods, but only so many actual core methods. There may be a thousand flowers on a tree, but there are only so many branches, and one trunk and set of roots. The martial arts, no matter how different they seem, all share similar characteristics. They cannot help but do so.

The "big three" internal arts are a closely interrelated set of martial arts. Imagine a diamond lying on a table, glittering in the light. Three men stand around the table, each admiring the diamond. For each man, different facets are highlighted, each point of view bringing certain aspects of the diamond to light for that individual, and each individual's perspective flavoring his opinions of the diamond, his reactions to it, and the way in which he chooses to express his impression of the diamond to others. Each man is able to perfectly relate his method of experiencing the diamond to give others a way to have the same experience. But there is only one diamond.

There is one way to generate internal power, but the three arts place emphasis on different aspects of it. There are only so many ways to use that power generation which are abstract enough to be applied to the maximum number of attacks. Each art settled on a certain number according to a certain favored philosophy or principle. Do not be blinded by the number, though.

As an example, I had Hsing-i's Pi Ch'uan explained to me as using P'eng and Lu from Taiji, and in Bagua this would be stop, catch, and pull.

[circle_walker]

I think that I'm still too much of a novice to make a real contribution here, but I'll try anyway. I study the Chiang Jung Chiao lineage of Bagua, from a man who is a Xing-i expert as well. He matter of factly states that the five elements are present in Bagua. He also likes to point out the Xing-yi moves that are present in our system. The opening posture for example "lean against horse" has an often overlooked application. The arms trail behind after the push, I always took this as a transition movement, since it is more apparant in the single technique drill. When my teacher showed me the application of it I almost felt my elbow separate. (as a side note, apparently joints are capable of generating a sense of fear independent of their owners) Other moves like "Pheasants fighting" or "Lion rolls the ball" all derive from Xing-yi. However these are Xing-yi techniques that are present in a Bagua system that is rooted in some Xing-yi. More in line with your question I guess would be an observation I've heard from a really cool Tai chi man. "Once you learn Tai Chi, your boxing will become Tai chi"(He was previously a boxer). As our internal skills grow and develop, that application bleeds into other methods of fighting that are natural to us already. I'm not really familiar with the 5 elements of Xing-yi at least in those terms yet, but I've heard many "hard" stylists who converted to a "soft" style who say that their Shaolin/Hung ga/Western boxing became softer, and more adhering. I hope that I've been able to contribute something that you were looking for.

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by circle_walker
Other moves like "Pheasants fighting" or "Lion rolls the ball" all derive from Xing-yi.

Would you care to elaborate on the lion rolls the ball move and how it is derived from hsing yi? What is it about the move that is consistent with hsing yi's flavor?

Peace

[circle_walker]

The way I was shown the postures, in the 7th gua; lion rolls ball is identical to drilling fist. This then rotates back near the head, and slaps downward into what I think is Xing-i's bear posture. I'm not that well versed in Xing-i at this time, just what comes out in my Bagua lessons, or what my teacher explains while he's practicing his Xing-i.