Any comic book fans here??

[quiet man]

It's spelled "Gorazhde" (it's a town in Bosnia and Herzegovina). Thanx for the tip, CSN!

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by quiet man
But you shouldn't dismiss superhero comics.

Ok, I enjoyed the Maxx, I'll admit. But my beef tends to be with
the way these things are present. There's a problem with plots
within an unending series. These are often the same problems
that soap operas have. With each successive story arc, you need
to make the next one "better." The challenges must be tougher,
the bad guys badder, &c. After a point, you end up with the
extreme situation where the authors clearly hadn' t thought it
through and can't see a way out for the good guy, so they have
to do a cop-out ending (e.g. Spiderman's "Maximum Carnage").
Obviously, at this point, they realize they can't do this sort of
thing anymore, so they start introducing weird plot twists based
on some form of revised character history. Then new writers show
up and want to change the character in some way. I'm normally
ok with this, but when you stick it in the same title instead of
doing a limited run arc, the inconsistancy makes the book lose
appeal.

There are some good superhero titles out there, but they tend
to be one shot deals (e.g. "DKR") or limited run things.

Qi Dup: A thing you might want to try is to talk to the guy at the
store. They should be able to point out a series of the type you're
looking for and could possibly even suggest a good starting point
(warning: this could be a compiled volume or graphic novel).
Altnerately, you could do what I do and look at the various books.
If you see one that strikes your fancy, buy it. If it sucks, don't
buy it again. If it's merely ok, but doesn't really do anything for
you, buy the next one. If you don't absolutely love it by the third
issue, stop buying it.

[Kristoffer]

spidey as a kid. now,,,,,,, violent stuff.

[@PLUGO]

Marvel's getting really smart...
check out their Free online comics.
an excellent way to get people interested in "reading."

Qi dup:
I think you're thinking about Joe Madura. If you like the Style, Uncanny X-men now features art by "international ((Manga)) superstar Kia Asamiya! Plus: what is Juggernaut's dark secret?"

However if you want an edger read, I can't recomend NEW X-MEN enough...

Spiderman:
The comic is making fair use of the attention granted by the movie's success. There's a LARGE variety of comics being published featuring the charactor.
With writers Like Kevin (DOGMA, CLERKS, CHASING AMY) SMITH, and J. Michael [i](Babylon 5) Straczynski there's a concerted effort to make the series much more accessable...Plus there are plenty of fresh graphic novels available to remind reader what was so good about the comic. Consider the clone saga a thing of the past...I hope.

Also... I believe the writter of DEADPOOL is now writting JLA...

BONE... Yeah I just wish I could borrow a bunch froma a friend or something. I fear if I start reading it I'll end up seeking to complete the "collection" which will be P R I C E Y...

As far as those cassic Batmans and Daredevils... Check out some of the New Daredevil stuff... Kevin Smith wrote an Amazing Daredevil story that's now in Tradepaperback from... a modern classic.

BATMAN was good about a year.5 ago... some of that stuff should be collected by now... Particularly the DETECTIVE comics of that time... if you're into a back issue hunt.

Safe are "Gorazhde":
was my intro to Joe Sacco.... It's not really kid stuff... some times heavy, but SOOO worth the read, just to see what comics are capable of...

Marshdrifter said:
These are often the same problems
that soap operas have. With each successive story arc, you need
to make the next one "better." The challenges must be tougher,
the bad guys badder, &c. After a point, you end up with the
extreme situation where the authors clearly hadn' t thought it
through

I tend to agree... and have since begun following writters more than titles, though I can't help but check up on a much beloved charactor occasionally. However I think comic editors have learned quite a bit since then and writters tend to now be hired to work on "extended" story archs rather than just given a title to write indefinately. This may be a result of the tendancy to "collect" such story arches into Graphic novels. So the result is a greater sence of "completion" with-in various periods in the charactor's life... when it works it works very well. When it doesn't you can drop the title and chack it out again later when a new creative team has taken over...

The internet is a wonderful way of shopping for comics... Getting an idea of what's out & what's comming out. As well as finding some backstory on the creators. A comic shop owner will usually be more than happy to make some recomendations as well...

$10-12 bucks can go along way towards a weekend of comic reading. What with the holidaze comming wouldn't it be nice to be a kid again even for 20 minutes...

I've reciently discovered the joy of passing on piles of comics I've culled from my collection to my girlfriend's younger cousins (when My niece & nephew aren't in town) which has placed this whole art form into a new light...

now, you're homework assignment is to drop by the local comic shop and pick up something new...

Comeback when you've finished reading it and let us know....

• What was it?
• Was it worth buying?
• Will you buy it again?
• How was the story? Art? presentation?

[Chang Style Novice]

The most serious problem with superhero comics (or superhero anything for that matter) is that the underlying theme is always going to be the same: "Wouldn't it be really cool if I could kick so much ass?!!" There may be other themes on top of that, or counter themes, or commentary on that theme, or what have you, but the power trip idea is always going to be there in some shape or form - it's part and parcel of the notion of a superhero, and why some authors started exploring the fascistic overtones of that notion, most notably Alan Moore in Miracleman and Watchmen. It's also why those two books, and others like them (The Dark Knight Returns, Bratpack, etc.) are sometimes called 'The Last Word on Superheroes.' And why most of the really good work (IMO) in comics is happening in other genres, like Joe Sacco's journalism, many folks' Raymond Carvery slice of life drama, From Hell's combination of socio-political commentary and gothic horror, Jim Woodring's surrealism, etc..

In other words, I think about all that can be said about superheroes has been said, and from now on, the best we can hope for is talented riffs on old ideas. And only ABC seems really interested in that kind of retro-fun approach. Everyone else is doing 'gritty' 'realistic' stuff that's not really either. It's just the same old power fantasies with more graphic violence and sex.

edit -

Well, Paul Chadwick's "Concrete" seems to have an original angle on the tragic super hero idea, too. I like that one a lot.

[@PLUGO]

The most serious problem with superhero comics (or superhero anything for that matter) is that the underlying theme is always going to be the same: "Wouldn't it be really cool if I could kick so much ass?!!"

Well Said, when it boils down The Super hero Genre is rooted in the power (super?) fantasy...
For any of you looking for a good novel to read, try...
The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier & Klay.

For not fiction on the topic there's a mindboggling list of essays, books or even websites devoted to the topic... I'll see what I can dig up.

Chang, how different is this from the much beloved Hong Kong cinema? Argueably the progenator (sp?) of the superhero Genre can be found in Wu Xia (is that the right term?). As well as Homer...
...NOT SIMPSON!

Anyway... how different is it from the story of King Author? "wouldn't it be cool if we had a King that kicked such ass...." etc...

I think perhaps the weakness isn't in the genre's initial premise... but perhaps the overharvesting of said genre and it's imbalanced domination of the medium "comics."

Ever read understanding comics?

Anyway, I could agree that WATCHMEN, Dark Knight Returns, Brattback, Miracleman, Zenith, et. al. are sometimes called 'The Last Word on Superheroes.' in much the same way that the book of revelations could be the Last word on Christianity... Dangerous territory here eh? hope Dr. Wertham's not reading this...


My point? I'm not sure... the pressence of Watchmen etc... should mean the end of the superhero genre. It should instead serve as a benchmark ((watermark?) for creators to attempt to transend...
Something ABC achieves... also a writer like Grant Morrison. Ever read his Doom Patrol? how about Animal Man?
His JLA run succeeded in pulling superheros out from under the dreadful shadow of the deconstructionalist (is that a word?) works we've been mentioning.

and his New X meN can called the best of Sci-fi Soap-operas as easily as superhero...

Next Issue: the non-superhero comic

[Chang Style Novice]

"Chang, how different is this from the much beloved Hong Kong cinema?"

Not much. In fact, if I can think of a way it is different (besides medium) this thread will be the first place I announce it.

"Anyway... how different is it from the story of King Author?" (sic)

Arthur and your other examples (Homeric epics, and we may as well throw in Gilgamesh, Beowulf, and the rest of 'em in there as well) are mostly distinguished by their strictly structured plots (see all them books by Joseph Campbell about mythological hero archetypes - you've probably heard a lot of that before.) Anyway, they have a well defined beginning middle and end, which is what a lot of hero comics lack. There's a beginning and middle, but as long as it's a profitable going concern, there's no end. And endings are what give real dramatic and emotional power.

Yeah, I've read a bit of "Doom Patrol" and "Animal Man" not his "JLA" or "X-Men" though. I agree that Morrison's really got something going on. My favorite by him is "Invisibles" where he more or less injects the opposite meaning into the power trip fantasy - a true power trip is an anarchist utopia where everyone is infinitely free to choose their own destiny and identity. It's a pretty smart riff on the deconstruction of superheroism idea.

But I'd still rather read "Eightball" or "Frank."

[quiet man]

CSN - B*I*G Clowes fan, are we?
Ever read Crumb's "Mr. Natural" or Vaughn Bode?

Yes, sometimes authors of superhero comics don't know when to stop. But that may be said for other genres too. The main problem is, IMHO, greed. Mo' money, mo' money. They don't want to try something new; instead, they exploit old ideas over and over again, until everybody becomes sick with it.
As for me, the idea of spandex-clad superhumans defeating supervillains worked when I was a kid, but nowadays I want much more that that; I want dilemma, self-doubt, questions, I want my superheroes to lose every once in a while (like Hellblazer, for example). Are there any such SH-comics out there? I think so.

I'm gonna state the obvious now : the world of comics is very, very large. You can always find 5 comics you're gonna love, and when they start sucking @$$, you can immediately switch to 10 new, better ones. And thank God for that. So, don't grumble - start searching.

[quiet man]

Now it's time for me to act like a good local-patriot , and ask what do you know/think of Croatian authors, living and/or working in USA and Canada: the late Edvin Biukovic ("Deaths&Devils"), Igor Kordej ("Tarzan", Dark Horse), Esad Ribic ("Codename: Scorpio", "Four Horsemen"), Danijel Zezelj, Mirko Ilic... any of these names ring a bell? No?

BTW, you guys are a true refreshment. I'm a member of this very large Croatian comics forum; however, discussion potential there is very limited, because... well, I'm ashamed to admit it ;-), but our national comics market is very poor, both in quality and quantity. We don't have that many comics translated to Croatian, and here in Zagreb we have only one (that's right, 1) specialized comics store. I read comics in English, but many other forum members don't. So, a few comics - a few things to talk about...

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I like Clowes a lot. But I like Woodring and Ware even better!

And although I haven't looked at Bode a whole lot, he seems pretty cool. Crumb on the other hand is an incomprable master. I can't believe he hasn't come up before now (well, maybe because he hasn't done much comix lately.)

As to folks from your part of the world, I remember when Biukovic and I think it was Ilic did their take on Matt Wagner's Grendel (Matt Wagner's another guy I think has done a lot with the superhero idea in Mage by grafting it with autobiographical comics) and they surely have some talent, but I don't know anything they've done sinse then. The guy that comes to mind for me is Alexander Zograff - isn't he from around there? I have a deep interest in surrealist/dream comics, hence my obsession with Woodring, Little Nemo, Krazy Kat, Eyebeam, Rare Bit Fiends, Promethea and so on and Zograf fits into that quite nicely. Of course, he does journalistic stuff, too.

[Chang Style Novice]

Speaking of Alan Moore, it looks like I'll be spending an assload of money again soon...

[Marshdrifter]

CSN:

The most serious problem with superhero comics (or superhero anything for that matter) is that the underlying theme is always going to be the same: "Wouldn't it be really cool if I could kick so much ass?!!"

I have a superpower (perhaps hero isn't the right word) story
floating around in my head where it blatantly demonstrates that
it isn't cool the main character can kick so much ass. "The Way of
the Dragon" is doing an excellent job of having someone who
kicks ass but neither he nor the situation are cool. Of course, this
theme seems to be a cleverly rehashing of the Destroyer novel
concept, but that's ok because in our more mindless moments
we actually enjoy Destroyer novels.

Design Sifu: Usually, when I go to the comic store in Chicago, I
try to pick up an interesting book I haven't read before. At the
comic shop where I live, they mostly just carry mainstream stuff
and it's not always possible to find something I haven't tried that
looks interesting. Tonight's my weekly comic run, though, so we'll
see what they've got.

[@PLUGO]

You know... this thred is like having a cool little party in my living room
Great point all around!!!

Chang Style Novice said:
Arthur and your other examples (Homeric epics, and we may as well throw in Gilgamesh, Beowulf, and the rest of 'em in there as well) are mostly distinguished by their strictly structured plots (see all them books by Joseph Campbell about mythological hero archetypes - you've probably heard a lot of that before.) Anyway, they have a well defined beginning middle and end, which is what a lot of hero comics lack. There's a beginning and middle, but as long as it's a profitable going concern, there's no end. And endings are what give real dramatic and emotional power.

Good old Jo Campbell...who said comics are just for kids!!!?

Let's talk about Myth for a second. Perticularly those stemming from an oral tradition. These tails where told & retold countless times... generation after generation. Storytellers varied and each one (as humans are want to do) added & subtracted particular details as the situation demanded. Most often for the purpose of keeping the myth relevent for that particular audience in that particular location at that particular time. What we now read are much closer to the focilized remains... But I suspect ancient Babylon (or was is Sumeria) lived in perpetual hope of the return of Gilgamesh.

I wonder if the superhero is very much our modern equivelent. The details of the myths change and are retold. One time it's Peter Parker's Uncle Ben Dying, followed by Gwen Stacey years later. Another time it's Aunt May, or Mary Jane. Or the Origen is retold & it turns out this time Mary Jane figures out he is Spiderman. Then it becomes a Movie & the Green Goblin is Normal Osborn & dies only after their first major encounter (while any comic reader know that GG haunted spiderman for a Looooooong time before his death). Still no mater the incarnation or details, the essence remains the same.
It seems when that essential aspect is changed (clone saga anyone?) the comic/myth suffer most.

That doesn't mean I disagree with what you say about publishers. But also consider the responsibility towards that Myth. Yeah Superman is own by DC comics, which is inturn own By time-warner... etc... But the Myth of superman goes well beyond the charactor with a big red S on his chest. Sometimes it's a lightning bolt, or a star or a lion's head...

Certainly Superman's much more important to a 12 year old kid with Asthma than to me... But as an "adult" there's craft to consider, technique and method. The same story can be told often sometimes greatly, othertimes horribly...

I remember one particular comic... Superman & Batman must fight Mr Myxlplx and Bat Might... the whoel adventure happens in the space of heartbeat. Bruce Wayne was being interviewed by Clark Kent at the Daily Bugel when Jimmy Olsen trips and is about to spill coffee on Bruce when time stops , the coffee in mid air. The adventures occures, ends, and they return to their placed just in time for clark to get the coffee spilled on him. Olsen oppoligises and coments "wow that was weird it was like I fell in slow motion or something... what happened?" to this clark replies...."it's called tripping Jimmy."

Now was that comic written in the '50's, '60's, 80's 90's? and was it written for a 12 year old? or someone a bit more experienced?

BTW... I was lucky enough to have an extended conversation with Matt Wagner on the very subject of Superhero as Myth... a very good time indeed.

Did you ever read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing? it's being collected in TPB's for any of you who haven't. Theseries continued after he left it with varring degrees of success. Mark Miller who now writes Ultimate X-men & the Ultimates. Wrote the final story arch of the Swamp Thing comic to great effect. Picking up from Alan Moore almost seemlessly, and completing what he started with great dramatic impact.

So yet, stories with ending are quite nice.

My favorite by him is "Invisibles" where he more or less injects the opposite meaning into the power trip fantasy - a true power trip is an anarchist utopia where everyone is infinitely free to choose their own destiny and identity.

You do know that the final volume of that 3 volume masterpiece has just been collected? Great work indeed... for more on THAT... go here!

quiet man said:
Ever read Crumb's "Mr. Natural" or Vaughn Bode?

Got really into Vaughn Bode while in highschool... Quite a few grafitti pieces where influenced by his charactors at the time. He & Raplh Bakshe created the not so great mivie WIZARDS together... rent it if you find it just for the joy of the moving charactors...

AND all of you SHOULD go home and rent CRUMB!!!
it'll change how you see the creator & his art...or not.

I want my superheroes to lose every once in a while (like Hellblazer, for example). Are there any such SH-comics out there? I think so.

Off the top of my head... Daredevil for noir.Powers for a more crime story feel in a superpowered world. New X meN of course. Xstatix for social comentary, humor, ironic not hero delemias, the cult of fame and death toll. Wildcats for interesting twists...

Hellblazer's not remotely spanex...but still kicking.

what do you know/think of Croatian authors, living and/or working in USA and Canada: the late Edvin Biukovic ("Deaths&Devils"), Igor Kordej ("Tarzan", Dark Horse), Esad Ribic ("Codename: Scorpio", "Four Horsemen"), Danijel Zezelj, Mirko Ilic... any of these names ring a bell?

"Deaths&Devils" was great, as well as the follow up Devil's choices... A loss to the form in his death.

Igor Kordej is illustraiting Soilder-X formally "CABLE" and has done some art for New X meN as well.

Loved the art in "4 Horsemen" didn't he also do "outlaw nation"?

Anyone follow Paul Pope?


Question?
what pulls you most to a given comic?

Art?
Writer?
Charactor?
Title?
Publisher?

[quiet man]

Question?
what pulls you most to a given comic?

Art?
Writer?
Charactor?
Title?
Publisher?

I'd have to sum it all up in one word - feel. My taste in comics is very broad, as you might have noticed . I'm very openminded, i.e. I don't ask (not until after reading it) who the author is or what's it about. If, after putting down a comic book, I go "Wow... that was GREAT... It gave me goosebumps!", then I'm happy. Hope I'm making sense here...
Don't get me wrong - I have favourite artists and writers and characters and titles and everything, but my one single most favourite thing about comics is - well, (good) comics.

Design Sifu - no, of course Hellblazer doesn't wear spandex (he'd look ridiculous ), but he knows the meaning of defeat. After all, he's got cancer... and although that may be a bit drastic, that's what I'm talking about.

"Swamp Thing": yeah, read it a little, like it a lot. Remember that story with the werewolf kid? Man, that was ScArY...

CSN - I don't know about Zograff, but he sound like a Russian to me.
BTW, it was Darko Macan that did "Grendel" with Biukovic.

Keep it coming, guys... loving every minute of this.

edit -

CSN, bring Iggy back!!!

[Chang Style Novice]

I did a little checking around, and Zograff is a Serb. Maybe a Russian descended Serb (couldn't be sure) but Serbia is where he lives and works.

I am pulled into a comic by the art and writing equally, I'd say, although there are certainly some publishers with a higher quotient of good results for me. Fantagraphics, Drawn and Quarterly, Cartoon Books, Dark Horse Mavericks, etc. That doesn't mean that I'm not open to new creators or companies, of course.

I'm gonna stick with pups for awhile - I can't have one myself on account of poverty and living arrangements, so I'll be stealing images from dog rescue sites. This guy is named "Waylon" and is in a foster home in Houston courtesy Lone Star Boxer Rescue. I wish I could take him home!