OT. Is the USA turning towards Jingoism?

[Brad]

Good post, Stone Monkey. You've hit upon a crucial point: special interest groups. That is where the power (and money) lie. Most Americans really are blissfully ignorant of how the government works, and believe that after seeing that 30 second clip on the local news that they have the whole story.

Yup, that's the one biggest problem with America. Everything's about special interest groups with money. It's like here in Ohio, there's legeslation going around that would allow people to carry concealed weapons(handguns specifically) in public. They haven't even bothered to poll the public about what we think of the idea. Or at least I haven't seen or heard anything about poll results in the media. It's basically the NRA's idea all the way. Honestly, I'm really sick of the way our American political system works, and I know there's a lot more people here that feel the same way. Unfortunately, a lot of our voices will never be heard because we're just poor and middle class people.


As for scientifically proven about people who hate America, there was a poll just published in the newspaper on the international comunities opinion of America. It was pretty interesting and complex. A couple issues I remember were in 19 of 27 countires populations the overall opinion of America had decreased in the last 2 years. They also polled populations of mostly Islamic countries on whether they thought suicide bombings were a justified tactic and it veried very drastically depending on the country. For example in Turkey only 13% of Muslims approved, while in Syria 75% approved. I think they did find the majority of people were overall disaproving of American foriegn policy with the exception being Britain where it was basically 50-50.

Personally I think there's a lot of oversimplification on American opinions about war with Iraq and other issues(and LOTS of unfair stereotyping). For example I don't like Sadam. I would be very happy if he was removed from power and replaced with a democratic freedom loving government. But I'm not nescesarily sure now is the right time to be going after him, or if we're the right people to do it. Now depending on how that question was ask and who did the asking that question could apear as a "yes" for a war against Iraq if they only paid attention to the first part. It all kind of reminds me of this SNL sketch where an interviewer kept trying to get John McCain to say he was going to challenge Bush for the presedency ;-)

Also if, lets say, a European says to an American,"Pres. Bush is an evil terrorist as bad as Osama Bin Laden! He deserves to die!!!" your going to get a vastly different response than if he said,"This is what I dislike about American foreign policy" and gives actual reasons. Really, I don't like a lot of Pres. Bush does but when I hear people calling my Pres. an evil terrorist something inside just clicks, and I find myself turrning into "arogant close minded overly patriotic" man

Hope you guys can sort through my ramblings because I'm sure I made at least one or two good point in there somewhere :P

P.S. I love the Harry Potter books ;-)

[ZIM]

So, what if they just said Shrub is an evil businessman terrorist? If you want to talk about special interest groups being a problem, then consider that Cheney (the real boss "we" voted for) basically RAN United Oil of California [UNOCAL] with the express job of building Gov't contracts AND building a pipe line through Afganistan and Pakistan...the oil coming in this case from [love this!] slant drilling into Iran [you remember Kuwait, right?]. Kah-razy!

But nonetheless true. The Taliban were blocking the deal. When we invaded [erm...invaded al qaeda] the deal for the pipe was the first thing to go through.

So, knowing also that poindexter, the bushes, cheney, rumsfeld, etc. are all into oil, this isn't much other than an opportunity to increase the American Empire of $$$, but just not to call it that, becuz thats not too PC. The reason the ppl's of the world hate us so is not becuz they can't see our POV, but becuz of our off-hand "do it becuz we say so" attitude.

Ah whatever. I don't want to be coming off as if saying "thats the whole story". it's not, very clearly. There's 9/11, and the very real threat of weapons being developed, etc. It's a world problem, not just a US problem- we are not certain where the missles might point when built, after all. I just am not comfortable seeing a presidential cabinet lining their pockets from the lives of our armed services.

[Brad]

Oh well, I give up Instead of talking to me like I'm an idiot, can some of you tell me where the heck you guy get all your information? Any reliable independent news sources for us Americans to look at since our own media lies to us constantly? I'm a normal guy in Ohio who has to rely on the national news, and newspapers for most of my info, and ocasional bits I find online. And no I'm not being sarcastic. I'm tired of being uneduacted! I had no clue about that whole Afganistan pipeline thing. I know Bush, Cheney and all their buddies are oil dudes but I never made the connection with Afganistan because... well... it's not exactly oil rich like Iraq or Kuat. I heard a number of people saying the Afganistan invasion is all about oil, but no one ever explains themselves.

Either way, I'm still glad the taliban is out of power in that country. Just not happy about the idea of someone using troops for those kind of monetary reasons like you said.

[Brad]

BTW ZIM that's the first intelligent argument I've heard towards Bush or his administration being considered terrorists yet.

[Brad]

Wow, I did a google search and found a UK news organization and an article I found seems to be a good example of telling some things I'll probably never hear on our American news:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=358926
What do y'all think? Anyone know anyhting about this site? Also this line:

The American officer also had a low opinion of the Western journalists he met at Bagram. "They just hung around our base all day. Whenever we had some special operation, we'd offer the journalists some facility to go on patrol with our special forces and off they'd go – you know, 'we're on patrol with the special forces' – and they wouldn't realise we were stringing them along to get them out of the way."

Kind of makes me think less that our journalists are lying to us, and more that they're just flat out incompetent, lol.

[Serpent]

Well done, Brad, you're on the path to a more informed view already. I always check numerous sources for news items before I form an opinion. You know, apart from the pipeline, Afghanistan also has enormous untapped natural gas reserves. Food for thought.

The Independent is a good news source on the whole.

[red5angel]

Brad, excellent post at the top there, however, unless you are roughly 13-15 years of age, I will have to beat you to the level of a13-15 year old for the Harry Potter thing...

Serpent is right however, everyone should take a look at many sources before forming a solid opinion on anything, and that was sort of my point with Souljah. This thread and the letter from Osama thread is full of post with assumptions, and I mostly blame the media for that. americans are too quick to take their 5 minute bytes and hold them as golden, but I imagine this happens in other parts of the worl d as well, right Souljah

however, as for that article I just have one word to say.....DUH!!!!! Even in the US media anyone paying attention would realize that while we managed to unseat the taliban from power in Afghanistan, we didnt catch anyone important, and we havent done any real damage other then financially to Al Quaeda. But like the Gulf War, people are willing to listen to BS as long as it is good BS. If we did such a good job with our Air War in the Gulf, why are we looking at going to war again with Saddam?

[Budokan]

It's easy for any politician to mislead the population when said population is mostly sheeple.

[red5angel]

Budokan, most populations are "mostly" sheep. Psychologically human beings tend to want to belong, and they also tend to take the easy road. Its easier to believe everything is good, and that your leaders are doing whats in your best interest.
It's the same reason you get oppressive regimes that can't be overthrown, very few people actually have what it takes to take action.

[FatherDog]

Brad:

http://www.prwatch.org/spin/

http://www.fair.org

http://wire.ap.org/APnews/

Good places to start.

[ZIM]

Certainly didn't want to come across as patronizing. I'll echo what was said: Good work! I prefer it when ppl disbelieve me and look things up for themselves, which is what you did. (I think I got a couple details off, but hey WTF?) The Caspian sea is what I totally forgot about- Khazahkstan reneged on their deals too. See, its partly about getting a friendly oil port for the US.

Different area that cheney was embarassed in was myanmar [sp?] AKA Burma. I'm wondering if anything will happen there, maybe next term. I'm telling you, he's the one thats running things from some cave in Wash. DC- a case for deniability in conflict in interest for Bush.

For the US attitudes nowdays and recentlylook here for a few movies.

[Souljah]

Serpent is right however, everyone should take a look at many sources before forming a solid opinion on anything, and that was sort of my point with Souljah. This thread and the letter from Osama thread is full of post with assumptions, and I mostly blame the media for that. americans are too quick to take their 5 minute bytes and hold them as golden, but I imagine this happens in other parts of the worl d as well, right Souljah

lol, i dont get it, I present my arguements as best I can with as much info as is possible, and still you try to patronize me?
If anything red its you who is making assumptions, you are assuming that I made an unfair assuption without any research....when you did not fully know to what extent I could back up the CLAIMS, not assumptions.
Why would I make a statement I didnt believe I could back up?
Well I've given you the evidence you asked for, brad had some for this in his post too, unfair? I dont think so..... you are the one that ruled me out.
You complain about people making rash statements on this forum, well yes while that is true, I have justified the statement I made clearly, you can continue to try and pick at my words and reform them if you wish.....but I have made my point plain and simple

soul

[Stone Monkey]

Call me crazy but it seems to me that you guys are arguing different points:

Souljah seems to be saying that right or wrong, the international perception of 'America as jingoistic' is widespread, while Red5angel seems to be claiming that the perception itself may be unfounded...

I think you're both right.

[red5angel]

Souljah, I thought you might take it that way. It wasn't however meant to be patronizing. the point is that when I saw your first post My point in drawing you into conversation was in part to say that you have to make sure you have enough references from different sides of the "coin" before you can make an informed decision.While I dont agree with what you said or the way you presented it, I feel no ill will towards you. If anything, one thing I have learned growing up in the US is that everyone is entitled to their opinions.
So, trust me when I say I am not picking on you, I understand your point, you explained it well, and that we agree or disagree isnt all that important when it comes around to it. You seem like an intelligent person, I am sorry you feel that way about Americans but there is nothing I can do about that.

Stone monkey I agree with you but the issue, atleast between what Souljah and I were talking about wasnt that Souljah presented it as a general 'fact' -

Souljah - "I think 9/11 just increased the 'jingoist' american attitude, it was always there, its very apparent from over here in europe and im sure most other countries notice it, but then many of these other countries have a large hatred against americans (because of this perhaps)"

- the issue personally was that he expressed it as his opinion and I dont agree with it.

[Stone Monkey]

Point taken