OT. Is the USA turning towards Jingoism?

[red5angel]

Marshdrifter is right on, while some lean towards jingoism, others lean away from it, and still others are "sensibly patriotic" What I mean by that is that most americans realize that while america is a wonderful country to live in, we have our problems and we are not perfect.
I personally am patriotic, I love this country and feel fortunate to have been born and raised here, not because I think any other place would have been worse mind you. I also fought for my country, however after all that is said and done, I know we have our issues like anyone elses and I could never be accused of saying our country is the best, because that is all a subjective matter. It's been great for me!

On the whole 9/11 thing, I dont have any anger for muslims, I served next to muslims, and now work next to muslims, jews, and other various people of different beliefs. I myself hold no religious beliefs. My only frustration is towards those who are too fanatical to see the difference between policy and people.

[Ford Prefect]

Ahh yes. At least it's not too arrogant to pass judgement on a population of people an ocean away.

[ewallace]

Agreed Red5. We do not have a perfect government. In fact, we probably don't even have a good government. But I for one cherish the right to even state what I just stated above without having to fear for my life.

[GLW]

Not sure I would say Jingoist...

Definitely unthinking and unreasoning.

Analytical thought in all forms is more and more discouraged. If you ask WHY IS SOMEONE TELLING ME THIS, or WHO STANDS TO GAIN FROM THIS, or any number of probing questions, you are now labeled anit-American...even though the foundation of the US relies on the concept of an informed population.

Reading - what is that....the reading comprehension and writing ability of most Americans has dropped sharply in the past few years.

Put it all together and you end up with the most militarily powerful nation in the world being made up of people who find discussion and thought disagreeable....

But then again, American culture has ALWAYS had a distrust for educated and reasoning people. Back to the Witch hunt days - question the logic of the hunts and you too were labeled a witch...

So it goes...the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[red5angel]

GLW good points. I would say that analytical thought isnt necessarily discouraged but that the way our society has been built around the media, some people are made to believe it isnt necessary. Now instead of trying to figure out why Israel is practically under siege I can go to CNN.com and read an article or two on it.

and dont get me started on reading comprehension just allow me to present one piece of popular american literature, Harry Potter.......

[Souljah]

in reply to red5angel



I have no jingoist beliefs, I learned not to have faith in my country a long time ago, although I'm still young.
I think being bi-racial moved me toward this.
It is a common belief among many europeans that the US are a generally jingoist nation, sorry to offend anyone, and I can tell alot of people will judge me for this but I'm just stating a fact,it makes no difference to me.

No I dont think I saw any euro- US threads.
Of course there are englishmen, frenchmen, dutch who could be accused of jingoism, but this is the nature of countries, and I didnt say it wasnt possible, did i?

Yes Its wrong to generalise a nation based on 50 or so people, but then I cannot comment on why many nations do not like the US (this would be generalising, would it not?), It could be jealousy, It could be arrogance.
To be honest I dont even care.

And if you think does it really matter?
What I was saying is just a fact, not a USA bash, although u may wish to turn it into a row.....

anyway im off to training


soul

[Stone Monkey]

Having spent a fair bit of time overseas (incl. recently the Persian Gulf), I have heard all sorts of conversations about America, jingoism, Nationalism, Bush, etc. (often assuming that because I'm Canadian, I must hate the USA...not true.)

One thing I noticed was that most people around the world have no trouble separating 'Americans' from 'America'... that is to say that while many hold the Government of the US in contempt, they realize it's not the American people per se that are behind US foreign policy.

The resentment comes partly, I think, from the fact that Americans appear to be willfully ignorant of the effects that their country has on the rest of the world, or just don't care. Too much MTV and J-Lo to think about. Common perception of US foreign policy amounts to exploitation and bullying - as US military denies 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' to other sovereign nations while providing such 'rights' to US citizens. (One example is the massive softwood lumber tariff against Canadians by the US government - this was found to be illegal by a trade council [on the very day George W. was making a glowing speech about 'free trade'...]. It was also found to be detrimental to the American lumber/housing market by US consumer groups, but the tariff survived, due in most part to American special interest lobby-groups. Thousands of Canadian jobs were lost. The US response to Canada was essentially "Well what are you gonna do about it...?" -- nothing, of course, except gripe. When other countries see America using such tactics against 'friends', they wonder what hope there is for the US to strike any meaningful deals with it's enemies.)

All in all, however, I think that although many fear and distrust the US military, government, and foreign policy, they still respect the American people and culture. They do make a clear distinction between 'America' and 'Americans' - but get somewhat frustrated that American media blurs such distinctions when reporting on America's 'enemies' (ie: all Iraqis/Muslims/Saudis are terrorists, etc.).

ps: My family is from the UK - some of us live in Canada now and some of us in the USA.

pps: Harry Potter is British

[Ford Prefect]

Good post, Stone Monkey. You've hit upon a crucial point: special interest groups. That is where the power (and money) lie. Most Americans really are blissfully ignorant of how the government works, and believe that after seeing that 30 second clip on the local news that they have the whole story.

There was a "clean elections" question on the balet this November. It had to deal with giving public campaign funds to politicians and trying to down play the role of special interests in elections. Did you here a single peep about this question on the news or by advertisement? Not really. There was one ad by special interests group talking about how the public shouldn't throw money away on politicians... Obviously it didn't get passed. Most people I asked had no clue what it was about either. It's kind of sad.

[red5angel]

Stone Monkey, good post, LOL@ the Harry Potter thing, good point! Is it number one on the book charts there as well?!

Souljah, "Well please allow me to retort..." I am not trying to offend, I am just pointing out that your comments are generlising and based on what fact? So what if you have met a few people that think Americans are loud mouthed and patriotic to the point of jingoism (I am also trying to win the "He said Jingo more times then anyone in a sentence" award), the point is it is a generalization and ignorant. You being Bi-racial (and I feel for you here I am too) should know that.
Should I assume that all black people are gangsta thugs because all the suburbanites in my neighborhood say they are? Maybe I should assume that all french people refuse to speak anything but french and are smelly and hairy because some of the frenchmen I met in the gulf were?

You said - "It is a common belief among many europeans that the US are a generally jingoist nation, sorry to offend anyone, and I can tell alot of people will judge me for this but I'm just stating a fact"

Really, has this been scientifically proven? have you done an official study on what countries and in what percentages hate america?

You also said - "but this is the nature of countries, and I didnt say it wasnt possible, did i?"

No you didnt, your example and point was America is this way, but beyond that you didnt present it necesarily as your opinion but as fact and your second post backs this up, as a matter of fact you use the word fact a few times - "I'm just stating a fact" and "I was saying is just a fact".

You also, also said - "Yes Its wrong to generalise a nation based on 50 or so people, but then I cannot comment on why many nations do not like the US (this would be generalising, would it not?), It could be jealousy, It could be arrogance.
To be honest I dont even care."

Yes it would be generalising, but saying many nations do not like th US is generalizing in the first place so why stop there?

My ultimate point is this Souljah, I dont care if you like the US or not, it's really not important, I like the US, I also really enjoyed Mexico, England, Italy, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. I heard all kinds of things from all sorts of people about all of these places, some good some bad, however, I had enogh commone sense, open mindedness and foresight to understand that while I may hear things and may even experience some things, they dont always hold up as the end all to be all of examples understand? what bothered me about your statement is not that you may have been bashing the US, but that you made a statement I believe to be ignorant of the facts, and yet presented as such. I see it all the time on this forum, I am sure some of the old timers remember a thread or two where there was some beating of chest and your country sucks type comments, etc... never really got involved, but it bugs me when I see ignorance like this because thats why we have things like Nazi Death Camps, and Wars in the middle-east or planes slamming into buildings. Because all of those guys on those plnaes already had formed opinions on what america was about and had so closed thier minds to the idea that America is a land of individuals just as is their own country and that not all of us are reesponsible fo rthe things that go on around us, or the people you meet in your own country.

[Kristoffer]

GOT JIZZ ?

[Kristoffer]

oh god Im tired...

[red5angel]

You all right Kristoffer?

[Souljah]

scientifically proven? lol, ok

There are many tv-net polls held over here that ask these type of questions. About bush and his 'regime' (sorry, i know this sounds extreme) and nationalism.....
There have been a string lately. In which 50,000 or so people took part.
I know this is not solid evidence, but then Im not saying everyone, just some, or many..

sorry , gonna go read the second half of your post jus thought i'd reply to the first part

[red5angel]

Souljah, fair enough, they have them here too, and he isnt exaclty gaining popularity in the US, but those are polls on Bush's popularity or the govenrments popularity, not Americans in general.

Before this goes on Souljah, understand I am not trying to start a flame war or **** you off. You made a statement I think is unfair, I come from a mixed blood family and have delat with too much of that sort of thing and I dont lik eit when I see it. I may not change your mind, but I definitely feel better about getting off my chest.

[Souljah]

I cannot give any solid proof, but this does not make me wrong.....nor does it make you right.....its inconclusive

there was actually a question "are americans snobs" or something along those lines, but I dont think you can count the results of that one as it was probably people being unnecessarily harsh.....

I dont think I made an unfair comment, I made that comment based on what I read and see, over here, in srilanka (where my dads from) and in the middle east (where I go sometimes....its a long story)
and though there is a much higher hatred over there towards the US than over here, I still notice it here...not exactly hatred but not kind words.

But when you think about how they take surveys.....they cant get a survey done like a census, they have to generalise.
50,000 people would have to represent the other 50 million.
Just the probability of it, again not saying im right or wrong, just my belief..
Im sorry if you think I'm still being unfair, but I've tried to justify myself enough, and if you still think It's a ignorant and egotistical view then im sorry I cant argue it any further as its past my bedtime, jks...
You have your view and I have mine m8
after all, what would the world be like if people didnt disagree.....