Stance Training

[Oso]

fa_jing

didn't seem like it.

and it certainly doesn't seem like a martial art could be
viable without paying attention to flanking...I just was curious
and figured I just hadn't seen it in the people I've watched.

thanks,

Matt

[rubthebuddha]

oso,

fa_jing's right. wing chun -- all families -- work with flanking. anyone who doesn't isn't listening to their sifu.

honestly, unless i have a need to follow the nose (say, if someone's throwing a big right hook, i'll step to my forward right and stay nose-to-nose with them, because stepping to the left will get me hit and i may be too late to just step forward), and someone's attacking me, i love to flank. i do it more if someone is of larger size and comes at me strongly, i'll just turn, let them go by me a little and attack them from the side. them bull, me matador.

a problem with flanking can arise when wc folks (of any fam) don't keep their torso square to their opponent. a great deal of the advantages of wc are lost when not square and it's pretty easy to pick apart someone who doesn't stay square unless they know a lot more than me

i haven't learned all the wt forms or seen anywhere near all the applications, but from what i have seen, attacked or defending someone while not being square requires a reason -- that is, anytime i'm not attacking or defending and i'm not square, i do it intentionally to gain something.

[Oso]

RTB,

cool, thanks. As I said, just curious having minimal contact with
the art.

Matt

[18elders]

i understand the importance of stance training but here is a true story for some thought.

Mantis practitioners should know who Lee Kwan Shan was(not the wah lum guy). His disciple Li hung jie is my grandmasters teacher.
He told him a story of a tai chi guy he would always see in the park holding his stances all day long. Master Li is a plum flower mantis practitioner, curious about his ability he challenged the man to a contest to see who could uproot the other from their stance.
After a long period of time neither man could uproot the other, master li said he understood why the man spent so much time on his stances but said he also needed to develop his hand techniques. With that master li hit the man 5 times and knocked him down.

[Oso]

Last night we did three star conditioning drill while in each stance.


Matt

[rubthebuddha]

oso,

welcome. flanking's a good skill for every art to have. certain arts like tkd are limited in how much they can take advantage of flanking, but you'll find that in the more combat-oriented and less sport-oriented arts, flanking will be a substantial part of how you work. even bjj has it ...

"hm, i got your side, why don't i just take your back as well and have my way with you?"*



*this can mean any number of things, as most bjj folks i know really can have their way with people if they can take the back.

[Oso]

sorry, had to go there

I just live too dang far away from everyone to play often enough.

RTB, are you Washington state or DC?

Matt

[TkdWarrior]

Enlighten me ...
Wat's flanking?
-TkdWarrior-

[Oso]

something not done often enough by most people
even if we say we practice flanking as a tactic.



matt

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not sure what's appropreate for a Back sash rank as I have a varied history, and most of the small groups I have been with over the years don't have ranks, BUT I used to perform a Shaolin set called Wu Bu Chuan. It consists of 22 stances, two of which are the open and closeing of the set and are not held leaving 20 postures to hold. Since it is really 11 X both sides, it's not as bad as it sounds. Several are repeated twice.

Basically, I used to hold each stance for 3 minutes and seamlessly transitioned into the next. All stances were held deep and the progression was continued until I could hold it comfortably

. Horse was the thighs level "Iron Chair" with the punch held to the side like draw the bow in the 8 section Brocaed set.

The set has one posture that is done slighlty sunk on one leg wile holding the other in a front snap kick (Hands in Draw the Bow), and there are sevral other one legged standing stances. the rest are very low, and difficult to do.

Basically I think that individually, you should be able to hold them for 10 minutes each, and 3 minutes each if done consecutively in the form. I used to do this 2-3 times a week without fail up until the year before my health problems started.

I figure if I "Had" to assign myself a rank, I would make this my Black sash standard as it is well above the performance of most Black sash's in my area (With few notable exceptions). The schools that generally hold these types of standards really don't have ranking systems that I can see, so who knows. I guess it's up to each individual school owner.

If you require a 10 minute Horse stance, I doubt you will ever see more than a small few that make it to the Black sash level though.

For me, I was not comfortable teaching unless I could maintain that standard, even though I was just teaching kids at the time.

[omarthefish]

Funny counting all those different stances. 6-8 basic ones? In Hung-gar, I only count 4, and then there's the pigeon toed stance which I don't call basic because it's not intoduced untill you start sup yin.

1. horse
2. bow/mnt. climbing
3. cat
4. twist

I'm not a huge fan of pure stance training. I've taken it up again lately but mainly just when I'm to lazy to get my arse out to the gym and figure it's better than just sitting on the sofa watching t.v.

My reccomendation is holding each of the basic four for a set number of breath cycles. Ten, works pretty well. Then chang your stance without standing up. As you get better, your breathing will slow down and the time will increase. Cycle through all four stances twice (one time on each side ) and then stand up and shake your legs out. Rinse, repeat.

Pure stance training is mostly for when you don't know a lot of forms. If you have learned a few forms, your better off either performing them real slow or better yet, perform one movement and then hold it for 'x' number of breath cycles like the exercise above. You can stretch a 3 minute form out into 10 or 15 minutes this way.

The other thing is that every time I get to a new time record, I usually find I can adjust the stance in some way that takes me back to square one. The small adjustments go on for ever. Knees bent so toes are just barely out of sight (my take on this one). Tail bone tucked in. Knees pressed out. knees pressing back. lumbars pressing back-stetching down. Head lifted. Chin tucked. chest hollowed. I haven't even gotten started on the pelvic girdle yet . . .

Instead of going for time records, I like to go for more and more subtle refinements of the form. If it's done properly, 3 minutes can be murder, although I still dream that some day I'll hold a low horse for 40 minutes, it seem like a pipe dream today.

[Oso]

Hiya RD,

10 minutes at each stance for black sash level is a good ideal.

Not necessarily for a test where you would have, in addition to
the stance work, 20 forms done 3 times each, 30 or so kicks
20 or more times each, demonstration of at least 5 techniques
from each form done multiple times culminating in a couple at
near full speed and contact and all the other stuff there should
be in a test. Not to mention, in my school at least, an hour or
so of sparring at the very end. Our black sash tests are around
6 hours. Mine was 7 1/2.

So, that is the framework that I'm trying to fit some sort of
requirement for stance training. If I had them do 10 minutes
each then there would be 90 minutes of just stance work.

Now, you could do the stance test the day before and then
do everything else the next day. That's an idea !!!!

But, hell, I've got 7 students and I don't want to run any of them
off before they even really get started good.

Is it better to help create good martial artists out of the top
percentage of people who are physically fit or is it better to try
and help the average person achieve something they never
thought they would be able to do


omarthefish

I've actually just got 5 listed. Your four plus crane.
I think I've seen 8 out there on some NPM websites.

I like the breath cycles idea. I was taught to use breath cycles
for holding chi kung postures and there is no reason not to do
it w/ stance training.

Good detail on refining the stance work. I think it goes without
saying that a beginners horse or twist stance would look entirely
different from and advanced students due to the continuous
refinement of posture.


thanks,

Matt

[Royal Dragon]

"Is it better to help create good martial artists out of the top
percentage of people who are physically fit or is it better to try
and help the average person achieve something they never
thought they would be able to do "

Reply]
Hmmmmm, I would try to do both. have a secial program for the gifted, but cater your main program for the common man. That is where your bread and butter is. Without them, your gifted students won't have a place to train anyway, unless they are willing to train in parks, garages and basements like I have.

[rubthebuddha]

oso,

washington state, about 25 miles from the canadian border and right on puget sound.

i was out your way recently. my brother lived in greenville, nc, and he got married in beaufort (also the nc version, not sc) back in september. he and his wife now live in maryland.

[Hau Tien]

Oso,

Sorry for not replying sooner... been in the middle of finals week at college.

Anyway, we are made to hold our stances fairly deep for those time periods I gave in my last post. Sifu stands and watches us. We generally go over the theory of the style (7* PM) while I'm doing my stances. It's a welcome distraction. Although, every once in a while Sifu demands a deeper stance. And the last minute or two he insists you sit down even deeper. I just about fell over on my first test.

He gives you enough time to walk the cramp out of your leg (After sitting in a cat stance for 7 minutes, your back leg is on fire), and then you do the next stance.

Now it's not too bad for me, but I've been training my legs with both stances and weights (well... not in this last week... stupid tests). The extra workout has helped a whole lot.

I think that if you've got some students who are good, and have potential, you should give them the requirements you want to have in place. If they've really got potential, they'll work towards it.

Of course, if it is your full time occupation (and source of income), you may want to make concessions when you're first getting started, then change into a more regimented routine after you have a stable student base.

Most of all, be honest with your students. Tell them about what you had to go through in your training. If that's what you're having them do, I can't see them complaining (other than about their aching legs )

Just my opinion