Stance Training

[Royal Dragon]

"Tell them about what you had to go through in your training. If that's what you're having them do, I can't see them complaining (other than about their aching legs )"

Reply]
See, the problem with that, is 80-90% of your student base are not truly dedicated, and if you make it too hard for them they will quit. The key is finding a balance that challenges them, but keeps them from feeling "Punished" through the really hard stuff we like because ther is ovbiously something wrong with us

That is why I sugjested offering a seperate course for the really dedicated. Make them come to every class, and make them really work the system. It will act as a positive example to the rest of the students who may aspire to be like them in time and just need to work up to it emotionally.

I also sugjest giving those types a break on tuition as the hard core students are our future and should be supported, especially considering they are not all that common. The regular students are our present, and support the club right here and now so the hard core types have a place to train.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
See, the problem with that, is 80-90% of your student base are not truly dedicated, and if you make it too hard for them they will quit.

This type of thinking is the scourge of CMA

[Oso]

RTB

too bad. I don't live near anyone This stupid town of
76,000 people has 26 schools listed in the yellow pages and they
are mostly Mcdojo type places and everyone is so concerned with
promoting image that they don't like to play. The only guy of
any comparable ability (and, actually he's better) has gone all
internal on me and doesn't want to spar anymore.


hmm, that sounded a bit arrogent. How about "The only guy
of comparable ability who will touch hands..."

I look at it this way, 'sifu' doesn't actually mean that you are
the best fighter. I'll touch hands with anyone and if a 5 year
practitioner can pop me then good for them.

I think there should be a 'sifu' level sparring division but I don't
think many would go for it. Funny that, you see the "master"
and "GrandMaster" forms divisions but no sparring. Maybe
there is something there I don't know yet.

Sounds like you live in a very beautiful place though.



HT

Thanks for the input. I feel pretty good about what I have
chosen as the requirements. They may not be all that long
in and of themselves but within in the context of the type of test
I usually give they will certainly remember each test.

Right now the school is just part time...no money to kick into it for
start up. I'd like to be able to try it full time in 2-3 years and will
hopefully have at least a couple of the folks with me now as
senior students to help with instructing kids and the newbies.

I think it is nearly impossible not to regale your students with
war stories of the incredible training you put in as a student.





RD

I don't think I want to 'promote' a separate class or program
for anyone. I tend to offer a lot of free, outside of class training
and barter type stuff (one guy is sewing all the sashes, I have a
woman who will be doing all the graphic design, a transfer from
my sifu's school who get's time for helping to teach) and I look
for the one's who jump at the chance to train. Eventually these
folks will be offered a little more if they really want it.

thanks,

Matt

[Oso]

Water Dragon

I don't know exactly what RD meant by his statement but
I think that there are different levels of dedication and
acknowledging that not everyone is in it as a lifestyle is
important.

You have people that run a couple miles a couple days a week
and will do that the rest of there life.

Then you have the terminally insane folks that run a marathon
or two a week and then there are the ultra-marathoners that
are just plain sick.

The person that runs 2 miles, 3 days a week is a lot better off
then the person who isn't running at all.

as a teacher I try to lead each student towards something more
then they maybe thought they wanted. But recognizing when
they are comfortable and committed to a particular level of
training and not pushing them to the point that they quit
altogether is important.

respectfully,

Matt

[[Censored]]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
See, the problem with that, is 80-90% of your student base are not truly dedicated, and if you make it too hard for them they will quit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This type of thinking is the scourge of CMA

Bad teachers are the scourge of CMA. You know, the ones who can't attract or retain dedicated students, and who can't build the dedication of the lazy ones. And then deny responsibility for the situation.

[Royal Dragon]

"This type of thinking is the scourge of CMA"

Reply]
Not really. One , it's true. Most students are not in it to become seriously skilled (Although the want to "Think" they are). Some teachers are not good at teaching those tyhat are not fully dedicated. Both MJ and Monkey Slap have mentioned they felt it would be difficult for them to teach the main stream due to the fact that they are too hard core and would literlly "Scare" the main stream guys away. They need guys like us as students.

"I" on the otherhand am really good at teaching the main stream, and infact I have quite a bit of experiance in it. When you are running a school, you will have 80-90% of your students that are just there recreationally, and are only partially serious. You have to know "How" to teach those types, or you will loose them. It is actually much harder to teach the Main stream because you always have to be carful of thier emotional limits so you don't exceed them. Student retention is a Bi.tch.

The hard core student is easy to teach, you can drill them on thier basics till they die, give them one littel thing at a time, ignor them for hours wile they drill on thier own in the corner and they will keep rising from the grave begging for more.

You don't have to play emotional "Mind" games with them to keep them interested.

You don't have to stop the class when you think they are reaching the limit and "Chit Chat" with them.

You don't have to constantly think of ways to make the class more "Fun".

You don't have to constantly try to think up new and different ways to teach the same things.

You don't have to constantly offer them new stuff so they don't get board.

You don't constantly have to worry about making sure they "Think" you are paying attention to them at all times.

You don't have to worry about trying to make them "Think" they are your favorite special student.

The Hard core student you can just train them hard strait up with no BS. If they train untill they have heat exaughstion from drilling footwork drills for three hours in a park's parking lot, they get up, go home and rest up and come back for more. Un fortunetly, in a comercial setting your going to have at BEST one or two of those out of 10, maybe less than that.

I think OSO has the right idea. He's thought this well out.

[Water Dragon]

Well, I may be Old School in my thinking, but I disagree. BJJ does it, Muay Thai does it, Boxing does it, Judo does it, Kyukoshin, K1, Sambo, Shidokan etc all do it and do it well.

I'm not saying that everyone compete or become a "master" of their representative style. But in any martial art that can be considered "martial", there standards that must be adhered to. There is a certain level of cardio that must be maintained, there is a certain level of strength that musy be maintained. Stances must be held correctly, drills and sparring cannot be neglected. There are power building exercises and equipment training that exist in all CMA. This should be how classes are run. If the student can't tolerate or enjoy the training, they should leave. Let some other art have them.

As it stands now, I think CMA are a joke even though that's what I train. Fore every good CMA school I know of, there are at least 50 terrible ones. What a wonderful tradition we have inherited! Besides, you water the training down and the only benefit is in recreation. Yes, perhaps you only run 2 miles, 3 days a week. But you don't take a walk to the mailbox everyday and call yourself a runner. You don't claim to be a swimmer when all you do is sit out back in the kiddy pool kicking back a Corona (Well, I do. But that's a different thread). But in the CMA, you can waive your arms in the air and be a Sifu as long as you're wearing silk.

I can't understand where I'm the only one who sees this as a problem.

[Water Dragon]

ps, it's just a hobby for me as well. I'm lucky if I can get in an hour a day, 4 days a week. But the hour is spent so that my legs are shaking, my lungs are burning, and my body is dripping sweat. This is as it should be. Hobbyists are welcome, dabblers are meat for the beast.

[Royal Dragon]

"Well, I may be Old School in my thinking, but I disagree. BJJ does it, Muay Thai does it, Boxing does it, Judo does it, Kyukoshin, K1, Sambo, Shidokan etc all do it and do it well."

Reply]
Yes, but those styles attract the highly competitve to begin with. Also, many of them are run in small groups or clubs that make just enough to cover the mat fee's.

You saw where my club is going to be right?? If I can't maintain 150-200 students, you think they are going to just let me use all that space for my freinds??

However, if I can run a good main stream program that has all the soccer mom's and thier kids going 3 X a week for main stream classes and feel good Tai Chi lessons for health, I have LOADS of space that I and my friends can use for nothing more than the years club membership.

The people who would be interested in a main stream program would not last two seconds doing what "I" do, even WITH my health problems, let alone what your doing healthy. BUT, they are exposed to good Kung Fu, and a number of them will eventually end up doing it.

The key, is to give everyone what suites their needs. That is why I had a discussion with Brian about useing my program to farm for talent for him. I'll send the really dedicated students to him, and he'll send all the one's seeking "enlightenment" to me.

I think your wrong in your attitude because you don't realise that 90% of the types of peopel those "Mc Dojo's" serve will NEVER do full time, hard core training. they will quit and go to the local Tae Kwon Do school.

Wait until you have been teaching professionally for a wile, and you can't keep enough students to pay the rent without watering down, and you will see what I mean.

I have been on both sides of the fence, 3-4 hours DAILY training, holding postures for 10 minutes at a time thosand of kicks 3 times a week, sparring, fighting Iron plam, and h9urs of borring drills, to trying to keep the flighty general populace in class so I can have a place for the dedicated to practice. I "Blew it" trying to stay true to the cause, and lost it for the hard core students that I had. I learned a valuable lesson. You NEED the flighty general public to support the dedicated.

[guohuen]

Soccer Moms!!!!
I bow thrice to your omnipotence Royal Dragon.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Wait until you have been teaching professionally for a wile, and you can't keep enough students to pay the rent without watering down, and you will see what I mean.

Yeah, the gym is nice, it's real nice. But if I have to, we'll train in the backyard or the park out in the snow. Ask Fa-Jing. He's been out by my place. He knows what it feels like to hit grass hard.

[SevenStar]

dubD is right - catering to the maistream is a large part of the current state of CMA. You lower training standards, make things easier...sure, you retain students, but what about the quality of those students? I would rather work a full time job and teach 4 good students out of my house than to teach watered down martial arts to alot of people full time. Take a look a sport fighting. It's thriving now and doesn't cater to the mainstream. They have to train you hard if you will have any chance at all in competition, and that continually raises the standards of training.

The idea is not to lower standards to cater to the mainstream, but to make the mainstream step up to a higher standard. If you have to, use contracts. In bjj, we have contracts. of you sign up for 6 months and quit after two weeks because training for 3 hours 4 days (and sometimes 5) per week is too hard, then it's your loss because you still have to pay. If they don't want to train hard and become better at what they are doing, then forget them. Those that stay will reap the benefits of hard training.

[yenhoi]

I train in my basement, converted to Dojo. It has room for 6 students and a teacher to train confortably. But I understand completly what RD is saying.

[rubthebuddha]

i think each person here is making a good point. water has his dedicated folks, and royal has his rec folks and his enthusiasts. BOTH are good. think of it this way:

the hard core school is REALLY REALLY making good artists/fighters out of its students. this school makes good by having a few people kick lots of ass.

the general school may have its die hards, but it also has large numbers of folks who are just there for a couple reasons (shrink the gut, more confidence, etc.). this, too, is good. both are producing those couple solid students, and one of them is even improving the lives of a few extra folks on the side.

to me, both are good because i define good as benefiting people. the hard core students are giving TONS of effort, and water be darned if they aren't getting a ton out of what they do. royal has similar students and folks who put in minimal or slightly more effort, and they get a little bit out of it. but both schools are benefiting those people who come in their door. if a successful martial arts school is based solely on the average quality of their students, the hard-core school would win. but if a successful school is based on the number of people who gain from it even in smaller amounts, then that school would win.

i'd rather say both sides are important. my school is more like royal's -- we have our die-hard folks who are there constantly, and we have our recreationists who are there for a little improvement in our lives. we even have a very successful kids program (muay thai, rather than WT -- try to teach an 8-year-old WT ), and i think that, if you can pull off a kids program, great, because you're getting that many more people positively exposed to the martial arts instead of at some boner mcdojo.

however, there have been times when i wish we had fewer weeknight warriors and kept the space for us balls-out folks. this is rare, but it does cross my mind.

there's also the benefit of the what a larger school offers:

1. greater chance that those die-hards will cross your doorway and get hooked.
2. greater income -- so you can afford a nice place to practice your stuff. a garage isn't a must, and anyone who's practiced in a nice, open kwoon knows how it may be.
3. greater general good done -- i believe it's our duty as martial artists to better the world around us, and the more folks who partake of martial arts, the more folks living happy, healthy lives.
4. greater opinion of martial arts -- there are enough hosebags and halfwits running pathetic kwoons and dojos in this world. it'd be nice to have good schools well known to have that side of the arts balanced out.

anyhoo, i'm not taking any sides in this. i think both types of schools are grand, and each has its place and purpose.

[rubthebuddha]

oso,

yeah, it's beautiful up here. our town is about as large as yours, plus we have the third-biggest university in the state here (my alma mater and employer) and all sorts of other good things. we're rated as one of the best places for outdoorsy folk to come play (hills and mountains and lakes and the bay) and one of the nicest cities in the states for people to retire to (a pretty darn clean city on top of all those good outdoorsy things).

only problem? the girl of my dreams, with whom i've been with for almost a year (one year on the 18th ) lives in austin, texas.