TO TIGERLILLY

[FIRE HAWK]

In the Shantung Black Tiger post on the other bord you said concerning the Shantung Black Tiger. I THOUGHT SHANTUNG BLACK TIGER WAS DEVELOPED BY THE DICSIPLES OF HARK FU MOON THE TEN TIGERS THEIR TEN FAVORITE MOVES ARE LTERALLY THE FIRST SET YOU LEARN SO SHANTUNG WOULD BE IN BETWEEN HARK FU MOON AND FU JOW PAI AND OF A CERTAIN LINEAGE AS WELL. Wich ten tigers are you talking about WONG FEI HUNG ten tigers or KOU YU CHUNG tentigers do the ten favorite moves make up this art in other words the the first set you learn is the entire art is that correct you said that this art was in between Hark Fu Moon and Fu Jow Pai what did you mean by that. FIRE HAWK

I was refering to Hark Fu Moon's ten tiger's set. Now this was the way it was explained to me. Hark fu Fu Moon is the oldest of the black tiger systems we're talking about. Shantung Black Tiger was created next,it has northern kuan integrated into it, though I was told it is southern in origin this is part of my lineage and the one I'm the most interested in. Fu Jow Pai is the newest, developed by Wong Fai Hung, so it's less than 100 years old. If I don't have this quite right somebody will be sure to tear me to pieces, so feel free.

[hasayfu]

Hi Tigerlilly,

Stumbled onto this thread. Interesting if we can get some info out

Your history of Fu Jow Pai does not match what's on the waising website. Does that mean you disagree with it or you are just stating what you were told?

Also, how does Hung Gar fit into your history? Wong Fei Hung (is that your Wong Fai Hung?) is in the lineage of most of the hung gar in the US today. He did not create a seperate tiger style. Of course there are other hung gar lineages and I am interested in how the other tiger styles tie into Hung Gar if they do at all.

Oops no I just wrote down the wrong NAME. sorry Wai Hong. This is correct? LIKE I SAID...feel free rip rip rip. Anyway I didn't read all the way through the website. I own my own business & am not paid to play on internet like so many of y'all (I'm jealous)I actually have to work really hard during the day. I wanted to see the symbol this guy was refering to. I'll read it and tell you what I think. I am also very curious about the different tiger systems, their similarities and differences. Who incorporated what etc. That's actually why I put up with all this crap...

[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 07-31-2000).]

[FIRE HAWK]

Hi Tigerlilly do you practice SHANTUNG BLACK TIGER you said that it was southern in origin and that it was mixed with northern kuan.How many forms or hand sets are in your Shantung Black tiger you also said that it was part of your lineage so i asume that you study this style long with other black tiger styles.I am just trying to find out more history and the curriculam that this style comes from i understand that you said that it comes from the Hark Fu Moon Black tiger style so would Shantung Black tiger be considerd a northern style or southern style. FIRE HAWK

Firehawk, if I was going to speculate as to how northern kuan was added to Shang Tung I would think it was when monks used to leave the monastery for their "ten years". Many of them used to hire themselves out to villages to teach self defense. I believe this is how different village styles of Hung Gar began as well. This is just speculation after reading about the origins of Shaolin Kung Fu in general. I would love to know more. Anyone?

[loquito]

Tigerlilly,

You write,
"Fu Jow Pai is the newest, developed by Wong Fai Hung, so it's less than 100 years old. If I don't have this quite right somebody will be sure to tear me to pieces, so feel free.

And then you correct yourself and write:
"Oops no I just wrote down the wrong NAME. sorry Wai Hong. This is correct? LIKE I SAID...feel free rip rip rip."

No need to rip into you but according to Fu-Jow Pai history, before known as Hark Fu Moon or Black Tiger, the story goes like this.

Wong Bil Hung, born in 1841, learned Hung Gar from Wong Kay Yin and later from his son Wong Fay Hong.--Wong Fay Hong has nothing to do with the formation of Fu-Jow Pai.

In a dispute w/another master at the Hoy Hung Temple, an elder monk threw the combatants away from eachother. In awe of the monk's kung-fu ability, Wong Bil Hung studied the monks style, Hark Fu Moon. Upon the monk's death, who was separated from Shaolin Temple, Wong Bil Hung renamed Hark Fu Moon, in honor of the monk, as Fu-Jow Pai of the Hoy Hung Temple.

Wong Bil Hung taught his nephew, Wong Moon Toy, who as sole heir to the sytem, comes to NYC and teaches to a few selected students. One of those students is the current Grandmaster, Wai Hong. Wai Hong did not invent Fu-Jow Pai.

Fu-Jow Pai/Hark Fu Moon has been well preserved since the Shaolin monk passed it on to Wong Bil Hung. As to exact years, I do not know how many, but I can say that the been around considerably longer than a 100 years as you posted.

Regards,
loquito

[FIRE HAWK]

Loquito on the Fu-Jow Pai post posted 7-15-2000 at 03:28PM You wrote NOW WONG MOON TOY LEARED HUNG GAR AND MI CHUNG I FIRST WONG BILL HONG ALSO BEGAN WITH HUNG GAR.AS A RESULT THERE ARE MANY ELEMENTS OF HUNG GAR IN FU-JOW AS WELL AS SOME MI CHUNG I FORMS SUCH AS FU-HAWK KUEN,GUNG GI FU-FUKIEN,AND IRON THREAD ARE COMMON STAPLES IN THE FU-JOW FORM ARSENAL. If Fu Jow Pai has elements of Hung Gar and Mi Chung I mixed in with Fu Jow Pai how can Fu Jow Pai be the same exact art that the monk at the Hoy Hong Temple was a master of called Hark Fu Moon Black Tiger style the monk at the Hoy Hong Temple would probably not recognize some of the things that are in Fu Jow Pai today since it has elements of Mi Chung I and Hung Gar mixed in with it.If it does have Mi Chung I and Hung Gar in it who put it there Wong Moon Toy or Wong Bill Hong maybe this is why Tigerlilly said that it is only a 100 years old i think what we have is a style called Fu JOW Pai with most of its roots in the Hark Fu Moon Black Tiger style in 1 way it is true Hark Fu Moon but because it has these other arts mixed in it it could also be called an electic style i have herd other masters say that this art was mixed with Hung gar Shantung Black Tiger is a art that has its roots in Hark Fu Moon but it is mixed with northern Kuan styles so it is electic Tigerlilly in one of the post above mentions the HARK FU MOON TEN TIGER SETS could there be ten original sets or forms that made up HARK FU MOON. FIRE HAWK

You know... you set up this thread it seems to disagree with me yet it seems to me I had it right in the first place, Hark Fu Moon IS the oldest, Shang Tung is next and then Fu Jow Pai. I'm just less wordy. I'm terrible at remembering names, but I do know my history. When I said less than 100 years old, the Fu Jow Pai Federation wasn't created until the 30's, I guess I was going on that date. I appreciate the history lesson. Oh and I will ask sifu about how many sets for you. Haysafu, no I can't say I agree with everything on this website, I prefer to get my info through either ALMA or HORUS than (not just this one, but any) commercial website Thanks tigerlilly

[loquito]

Firehawk,

Is Hark Fu Moon/Fu-Jow Pai the exact same art that the Shaolin Monk taught Wong Bil Hong a 150 yrs ago?

It's not a simple yes or no answer.

When the Fu-Jow Pai Federation was officially formed and chartered in NYC in 1968, and the doors were open to the public, Hung Gar and Mi Chung I sets were taught to beginning students. This was and continues to be a way to check and see their dedication and sincerity in learning Kung Fu. As a student advances, and shows their loyalty to the system, the essence of the style is unrevealed.

So, is the Fu-Jow Pai/Hark Fu Moon the same as it was taught a 100+ years ago to Wong Bil Hong by the Shaolin Monk? No,it is not taught in the same manner for a beginning student. The style has adapted for modernity and the changing times. But for the student that has been around and has trained to obtain a proficient level of Kung-Fu, I would say yes, absolutely, the Black Tiger Style remains in tact.

For me Fu Jow Pai and Hark Fu Moon are one and the same. Maybe their is another lineage of Hark Fu Moon/Southern Black Tiger, that did not come down from Wong Bil Hong, Wong Mon Toy, Wai-Hong, whomever, but I have never heard of nor have seen it.

Regards,
loquito

Si-Lum is a different lineage of black tiger. It's a different temple I believe. Kung Lek knows quite a bit about this lineage. Check out his schools website, it has a lineage chart for Si-Lum. You know Ioquito, I'm getting totally reemed in another thread for saying I (and my sifu) consider Hark Fu Moon & Fu Jow Pai pretty much the same. All the black tiger systems carry the same elements. True, there have been some modern elements added, but it most certainly isn't the first time this has happened to kung fu. I assume each teacher brings a certain amount of change in very small ways as well. But black tiger is black tiger. We recently had a student join us who is from another lineage of hung gar (yee) whose way of doing kuan is very different,almost hard style, full force, yet the kuan is exactly the same. My kwoon's style is slower and more flowing, nearly like tai chi in comparison. You can see the influence of Mok Kwai Lan in our school. this is just an example that came to mind. I'm getting off the subject...

[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 08-09-2000).]

[SwiftKill]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigerlilly:
Si-Lum is a different lineage of black tiger. It's a different temple I believe. Kung Lek knows quite a bit about this lineage. Check out his schools website, it has a lineage chart for Si-Lum.
[/quote]

Tigerlilly, do you know the web address to Kung Lek website. I have had no luck with the search engines so can you please write the web address for me. Thank you.

[badbluebro]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigerlilly:
[We recently had a student join us who is from another lineage of hung gar (yee) whose way of doing kuan is very different,almost hard style, full force, yet the kuan is exactly the same.
Tigerlilly, I am a Hung Ga student in the Yee lineage. As I see this statement and was wondering, what is your opinion or from any knowledge you may have gained, where the tiger techniques of Hung Ga passed from Wong Fei Hung come from. Would you say they may be from Hark fu moon? Thanks.
[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 08-09-2000).][/B][/quote]

I am actually trying to research and prove that the Black tiger systems are of the same origin. This is my belief. But boy this opinion seems to stir up trouble! Oh and swiftkill if you really don't know how to look up someone's website in their profile, then you really are a troll. I shouldn't help you since you were so rude either, but I just did. Say thank you.

[loquito]

Tigerlilly,

I am interested in finding out more about the Fu-Jow Pai, formerly known as Hark Fu Moon lineage as well.

Sorry that you are getting reemed, seems like that is the nature of these threads.

But anyway, I find your comment interesting about the differences in Kuan between your style and the Hung Gar style. Hung Gar forms are taught in Fu-Jow Pai and though they are the same movements, the emphasis is much different.

Both styles claim to have elements of soft & hard, but my feeling is Fu-Jow Pai emphasis much more the soft, while Hung Gar emphasis is more on the hard. What matters is what works for you and I have seen very effective students in the both systems.

You use the example of Mok Kwai Lon, I am not familiar with this form. Could you elaborate about this form. And what Hung Gar forms are you learning?

Respect,
loquito


Si-Lum is a different lineage of black tiger. It's a different temple I believe. Kung Lek knows quite a bit about this lineage. Check out his schools website, it has a lineage chart for Si-Lum. You know Ioquito, I'm getting totally reemed in another thread for saying I (and my sifu) consider Hark Fu Moon & Fu Jow Pai pretty much the same. All the black tiger systems carry the same elements. True, there have been some modern elements added, but it most certainly isn't the first time this has happened to kung fu. I assume each teacher brings a certain amount of change in very small ways as well. But black tiger is black tiger. We recently had a student join us who is from another lineage of hung gar (yee) whose way of doing kuan is very different,almost hard style, full force, yet the kuan is exactly the same. My kwoon's style is slower and more flowing, nearly like tai chi in comparison. You can see the influence of Mok Kwai Lan in our school. this is just an example that came to mind. I'm getting off the subject...

[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 08-09-2000).][/QUOTE]