White Crane & Hung Ga

[TopCrusader]

This could quite possibly be the most "newbie" question ever asked in this forum. Forgive my ignorance as I do not practice either of these arts.

My question is basically is there a difference in the techniques, postures, tactics, etc between the Crane elements found in Hung Ga versus the southern White Crane art? From what I understand, both have their roots in the Shaolin temple.

Thanks

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, there are a few white crane systems.
Define "elements"?
From what I have seen and experienced of Fukien White Crane and my experience in Hung Kuen, I would have to say that they are NOT the same thing.

[PM]

as for the origin of Hung Ga Kyun, everything points to Fukgin (Fujian). i do believe that Fukgin White Crane is one of the Ancestors of (old) Hung Ga Kyun, Lou Hung Kyun, ie. pre-Wong Feihung Hung Kyun and old Wing Cheun as well (judging from what i have seen of Baan Jung Wing Cheun. we even have very similar "crane" story as most Fukgin White Crane branches

check out ie.

Saam Jin Tit Sin Kyun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNTfFjhv6Ys

Ye Fu Cheut Lam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2WVX2_Zn4

and of course Tit Sin Kyun (quite a few videos at YouTube)

today's Hung kyun might have been influenced by varius branches of Fukgin White Crane - my tip is Calling Crane and Flying Crane. (not to confuse with "Tibetan" White Crane/Hap Ga/Lama Paai, which is a different story)

some Hung Kyun/White Crane discussion

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewto...ht=white+crane

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewto...ht=white+crane

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewto...ht=white+crane

[jdhowland]

...My question is basically is there a difference in the techniques, postures, tactics, etc between the Crane elements found in Hung Ga versus the southern White Crane art? From what I understand, both have their roots in the Shaolin temple.

There is nothing "Shaolin" about any southern white crane or Hung Ga.

The crane methods of Wong Fei Hung's lineage are found in the "dual methods tiger crane boxing" and derive from Wong Yan Lum's "lama kyuhn" style, originally a northern system not particularly related to Shaolin.

If you go back far enough there may well be some interrelatedness between seminal Hung method and branches that would become known as the southern crane systems. I don't know that any clear relationships have been discovered. Gwangdung and Fukien are close, but communication was not so easy in the 18th century. The way I look at it, everyone influenced everyone else when there was contact. Sometimes it was only political influence, sometimes familial, sometimes just negative influence. Names and "systems/styles" were probably not so important in those days. I think the names show political allegiance more than they reflect what was actually practiced.

[Hendrik]

Hung Gar and Fujian White Crane are different type of art. They develop different type of engine and uses different type of power generation.

[Mulong]

Hendrik, the opening of Working Pattern, Tiger Crane, and Iron Thread does possess some similarities Fujian stylist; maybe hong doesn’t focus on fajin per se, but the notion of wrapping the tendon is there.

If we go by the oral history or myths; Hung Hei Gun was from Fujian.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, the opening of Working Pattern, Tiger Crane, and Iron Thread does possess some similarities Fujian stylist; maybe hong doesn’t focus on fajin per se, but the notion of wrapping the tendon is there.

If we go by the oral history or myths; Hung Hei Gun was from Fujian.

For me, postures are just the bottle. one needs to know what is inside.

So, it is analogy to one is electical car and the other is gasoline car. the shape of the car might looks similar but they have different engine.

As most of you here know, I dont like to go by history or myth. I like to get to the bottom line directly, and let the bottom line tell us what it is as it is.

thus, we dont have to speculate. we just have to lift the hood and see what is inside the "car".


These two arts use different type of strengths.

With the way Hung gar cultivate its Kiu Sau, that already tell how it is different compare the Fujian White Crane joints power. The result of their physical body conditioning are totally different.

[TenTigers]

Actually, hung ga has more than one type of "engine"
At the fhsyk "level," the short hand section utilizes a completely different method comprised of fctt, coiling, spiraling,etc. You would ha ve to be in
troduced to this by your teacher and cannot. Be learned simply by viewing a YouTube video. I have felt the hands of people of advanced levels such as Lum Jo, who even at 98, had the feel similar to hand of Fukien and Hakka kuen.

[soulfist]

If we go by the oral history or myths; Hung Hei Gun was from Fujian.

Yes, but Hung Ga is not from Hung Hei, its from Luk Ah Choi.

[hskwarrior]

ok this may be an old argument....but what if any are the differences between hung kuen and hung gar kuen?

[TenTigers]

Depends...some use the terms interchangeably for hung-gar while others
may be referring to a specific set, or village style.so it gets very confusing.

[Hendrik]

Actually, hung ga has more than one type of "engine"
At the fhsyk "level," the short hand section utilizes a completely different method comprised of fctt, coiling, spiraling,etc. You would ha ve to be in
troduced to this by your teacher and cannot. Be learned simply by viewing a YouTube video. I have felt the hands of people of advanced levels such as Lum Jo, who even at 98, had the feel similar to hand of Fukien and Hakka kuen.

There is no way an art has many type of engine. Not in TCMA.



This is Hung Gar Kiu Sau cultivation, it is based on dynamic tension.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M72Ag...A62F76A589625D




This is White Crane cultivation,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFjhW...AF457DA3CB1D9D





This is Wing Chun cultivation, based on totally loose Qi flow dynamic similar to other internal art.

http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=897899701




There is no way a practitioner can do all of the above after their body is condition in either one type. Their body can only do what their body is condition with. That is reality.

as an analogy, a runner's body, a swimmer's body, a weight lifter's body are different types of body. after a long time of conditioning, they generate force differently for their own purpose based on their training and conditioning.

One cannot expect a weight lifter to generate power for swimming like a swimmer.



Thus, "soft" in one art is very different then the "soft" in other art.

In my opinion, failing to know the above will cause one to be blinded. I saw an interview in Gene's youtube somewhere where a grand master of Hung Gar claiming his soft kiu is equivalent to Taiji's ... well, that is totally off. Anyone who knows Taiji Kung knows those who practice Iron Wire type of art would not get Taiji type of body and jing. because those a heaven and earth different body conditioning.


So, in my opinion, here in the west, if we are not clear with this type of reality in TCMA, we will only end up mimic postures and then wishing for kung fu which will never happen. IE: One simply cannot do Hung Gar and expect to have the Wing Chun body as above.

[TenTigers]

Nope. That was simply one aspect of kiu sao development and usage. Certainly not the whole
.as far as being able to cultivate different types of ging,, many systems do this. I think you are extremely knowledgeable of your one branch of wck, which is fine, but you lack experience/understanding of other arts, which makes your comments regarding them invalid. _

@

[Hendrik]

Nope. That was simply one aspect of kiu sao development and usage.

Certainly not the whole
.as far as being able to cultivate different types of ging,, many systems do this.




I think you are extremely knowledgeable of your one branch of wck, which is fine,

but you lack experience/understanding of other arts, which makes your comments regarding them invalid. _



@

my previous posts provide three youtubes.

the first one is a Famous Hung Gar master describing the Uniqueness of Hung gar to TV interview. In the interview, he clearly describe and shows what is Hung gar and hung gar's uniqueness.

The second and third youtube show different body conditioning type ( Fujin White Crane and Emei Snake ) of TCMA to build and supporting the particular art needed.


That is what the Kung of TCMA refer to. the style always has to be supported by a unique Kung. As it said, TRaining fist without training in Kung, it is just empty training. Thus, Kung is the engine of the art. investigating the Kung of the art will lead one know what the art is about. also to really master the art.



If you disagree with me, you are welcome to show evidences which support your view. One needs to speak with facts.



also, could you explain, how is a person who is training and condition physically with continuous tension in Hung gar can suddently switch to White Crane's joints power engine which cannot be developed with Hung gar's continuous tension type of Kung?




Can you explain

how is
this Hung Gar of Lam Jo since you have brought it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXsjY...eature=related


to have this white crane engine in Fujian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKkxj...eature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, the "kungs" are something that WC and HK DO share.
The OP was basically about the CRANE in HK and how it compares to the WC system.
Not about the Hung systems overall.