sidekick

[JusticeZero]

Because the force returned from your kick connecting moves through your body into the floor. If you don't have your heel pointed at the target, this means that you are channeling the force of one of your most high power techniques sideways across your knee joint. If it's more extreme of a lack of twist, you're also twisting the joint with the force from the alignment issues themselves. Force across the knee is a bad thing, it's like eating a joint breaking technique every time you do it.

[apoweyn]

justicezero,

you mean sideways across your base knee joint? huh. i'd never thought of that before. (i do turn my foot, so i guess i've never had much cause to). interesting.

i don't think that would be as much an issue if you're retracting it immediately, but i don't know. that's actually a really good point.


stuart b.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by apoweyn
justicezero,
you mean sideways across your base knee joint? huh. i'd never thought of that before. (i do turn my foot, so i guess i've never had much cause to). interesting.
i don't think that would be as much an issue if you're retracting itmediately, but i don't know. that's actually a really good point.

Excellent point by Justicezero, and a good reason we turn the base foot on that thrusting side kick. It has extension, which can stress joints if improperly done.

With the snaping side kick though, it isn't just the immediate retraction but the fact it does not extend like the thrust. It also isn't used for higher targets, and doesn't have the power of a thrust. It's main purpose is to dammage or control his base while minimizing the time you compromise yours. And, like a jab, it is a good way to set him up for something else. Keeps him worried about protecting more than one height zone. It can be deployed to the front or side without turning the base foot, which makes it both quick and versatile. Ex: dealing with multiple opponents. A snaping side kick to the side to stop forward momentum of one opponent while dealing with an opponent to your front. Since it returns quickly you are still mobile and havn't spent a lot of time on one leg (microseconds are a lot of time in a fight).

[fa_jing]

When you don't pivot or use less of a pivot, it is necessary to have your body weight moving forward to counteract the reactive force. It is possible to do a thrusting kick even with little or no pivot.

[babooon87]

I still think if you dont move your foot its not a real sidekick.

In my book a sidekick is a kick that is done with a complete hip rotation, your hip must be in the same direction than the kick, so turning the kick is part of the technique and has to be done at least a little bit to have your supporting leg, your hips and your kicking leg aligned together and give you good power and stability.

[apoweyn]

babooon87,

well, you're getting into semantics then. a kick isn't a sidekick because it doesn't meet your definition of a sidekick. and that's fine. there's no real disputing that. to my mind, it is a sidekick. and frankly, i wouldn't know what else to call it. i could make up another name, i suppose. but there seems little sense in that.

in any event, it's just a word. the differing mechanics are worth discussing. the application of the name is a bit of a fool's errand. (of course, i'm very often the fool doing that errand. )


stuart b.

[dnc101]

fa-jing, doesn't it destroy ballance to move your weight forward while on one leg, or am I missing something in how you do it? We, and other styles I'm familiar with, want the option to retract the kick and step away. It seems that if you move your ballance forward your only option is to drop right in front of him.

Babooon, as I said earlier, styles are different. We differentiate between a thrusting and a snapping side kick, while in your style apparently only the thrusting one would be a sidekick. That is just semantics- my labels are not necessarily better than yours. The principles are important, though, as doing it improperly can result in knee injury or a busted face, or both. Just curious, does your style have an equivalent to our snaping side kick?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by babooon87
In my book a sidekick is a kick that is done with a complete hip rotation, your hip must be in the same direction than the kick, so turning the kick is part of the technique and has to be done at least a little bit to have your supporting leg, your hips and your kicking leg aligned together and give you good power and stability.

In my book, a sidekick is a kick that goes to the side. As opposed to a kick that goes to the front, or a kick that travels a circular path.

Anything more detailed than that is just dividing up different types of sidekicks.

[rogue]

"to stick, or not to stick. that is the question.
do you retract the kick immediately? or stick it for a sec? why?"

Supporting leg slightly bent, no pivot low blade of foot, pivot when kicking to the waist and above using the heel. Retraction depends on how it lands. If it's clean and does damage retract, if it lands but needs a follow up then stick and push off of that bent supporting leg to keep the opponent off balance or do damage. Usually I'll just continue moving forward by bringing the foot directly down from the target which brings me in close for grappling and hand work or even hitting my opponent with a shoulder.

[fa_jing]

dnc101:

Just to be clear, the momentum is generated before the leg is lifted- step up, then kick with front leg in one motion, or push off with the rear leg before kicking with the same rear leg, OR kick from a side stance where neither leg is in front of the other. Yes, your balance is committed to moving forward if the kick catches air. Since Wing Chun likes move forward, it fits into our battle plan (follow up with punches.) However, if things are really bad, you can still bail out to the side, because although the weight is committed, it isn't that extreme. Also I would like you to know that Wing Chun is very selective about kicking, although I am not, personally. Real WC kicking is said to happen on three base legs - your 1 and his 2. Open the gates with your hands then stick the kick in from close range. In this case, pivoting forward would actually jam your kick.

Familiar with TKD? Think about the step-behind side kick - also commited to forward momentum.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Since Wing Chun likes move forward, it fits into our battle plan (follow up with punches.)
Familiar with TKD? Think about the step-behind side kick - also commited to forward momentum.

WC, now I understand. I see where you'd like that as you guys want in close. You use it as a bridge. We like it there too (Kenpo), but want the option of fighting at any distance. If you think I'm going to drop in front of a WCer at close range- dream on!

I work out with a bunch of TKDers, and so am familiar with their version of the step behind side kick. It is similar to ours. The main purpose of this is not to generate momentum, though. It is to cover distance and achieve a desireable position. They, and we, can retract that kick and step back or to the side. Of course, we can also plant (not drop) forward if the kick did its' job or if we just want in close (and if the opponent doesn't practice WC ).

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by rogue
"to stick, or not to stick. that is the question.
do you retract the kick immediately? or stick it for a sec? why?"

Supporting leg slightly bent, no pivot low blade of foot, pivot when kicking to the waist and above using the heel. Retraction depends on how it lands. If it's clean and does damage retract, if it lands but needs a follow up then stick and push off of that bent supporting leg to keep the opponent off balance or do damage. Usually I'll just continue moving forward by bringing the foot directly down from the target which brings me in close for grappling and hand work or even hitting my opponent with a shoulder.

check out the big brain on rogue!

when i initially mentioned the traditional japanese sidekick i'd seen with the hip closed, i should've mentioned that it was a low kick. when i briefly learned shotokan, the hip was never as open as i had done in taekwondo. but it was more open high than it was in the illustration i saw of a low sidekick. interesting point.

i also like the observation about changing the sidekick at the time based on the effect you're going for. a skilled person can make adjustments as they go along, based on what they're looking to achieve from moment to moment. nice.


stuart b.

[babooon87]

I'm sorry guys if, my goal wasnt to say I knew better than anyone else, in fact I probably know alot less than a bunch of you guys, I was just trying to tell my perspective on the sidekick and how I do it, ans yes it is different from style to style

and to answer dnc101, yes, we do snaping kicks at my school, we do all of our techniques with impact, we never "push" our techniques, compared to TKD, witch I have done for several years, where they push alot of their kicks.

[apoweyn]

no need to apologize, mate. you're not being unreasonable. not by a long shot.

[babooon87]

thanks