All Roads lead to ?

[Yum Cha]

In traditional Southern styles, I've heard people say "All roads lead to the same place." At face value, it makes a certain sense, but most likely, it makes the same certain sense to different people in different ways.

So, what does it mean to you?

From one viewpoint it could mean that all lives eventually lead to death, the only common experience we all share other than birth, but...

In my opinion, there's more to it.

Does it mean that all styles are the same, that to rise above is to move beyond the constraints of style?

Does it mean we all come to the same understanding eventually, regardless of how it manifests in our hands?

Is it a condition of the mind, or an understanding of the art, or a level of physical achievement?

And, what are the lessons that take you there?

Anybody have any comments?

[extrajoseph]

C'est pour moi! All roads lead to me as a human being, physically, mentally and spiritually and it takes one lesson a day until I can't do it any more to get there. What style? What vehicle? CLF rules!

[fiercest tiger]

Leads to enlightment and understanding of oneself! When you learn kung fu, and you know it good you will know that life can be taken away so easily within a second or you can heal as well. So what you are saying is kinda like life and death!

my thoughts.

The roads may not be straight and may take you alittle long then some as well

FT

[Diamond Talons]

Your post is deep YC & good stuff thought. I see no one answer & even then a person's will change in time at least a little bit I think. If a person is interested in skill to receive and issue force then no matter what style their body will learn what it needs to reach this goal & if they are concerned with other things then no matter what style they will learn this stuff no matter if it's of the body or mind or spirit. I like spirit as example & can say there is no such thing as more spiritual than & one is spiritual or one is not spiritual & this isn't so much like kung fu skill where what the foe can do shades what I can do but it is same kind of thing. All people go beyond style at a certain time if they've done it right & what shows is the flavor of the hand & the meal itself is the man & we're all meat & flesh & bones & blood so just the flavor is what is left at a certain time & some call this essence. Tai Chi people move like Tai Chi people & Tong Long people move like Tong Long people & there is no difference between the man & the hand in any part of the person's life. Just for me & not fact so to avoid politics of which hand is better crazy stuff.

[meltdawn]

...uhhhhhhhhh, Rome?

[buddhapalm]

Yum Cha said:
<In traditional Southern styles, I've heard people say "All roads lead to the same place." At face value, it makes a certain sense, but most likely, it makes the same certain sense to different people in different ways.

So, what does it mean to you?>

To myself, all styles teach how to hit and not be hit, this is the "same place", same goal, I feel.

Since there are infinite angles and infinite combinations of hitting and not getting hit, then each style represents a portion of those movements.

<Does it mean that all styles are the same, that to rise above is to move beyond the constraints of style?>

To me I feel all styles are the same, yet not the same. IE, same goal, different angle. I could say we rise above, stoop below, or stand aside, when moving beyond constraints of style. Direction is relative to who is looking at you. Since styles are just styles, tastes are just tastes, but food is still food and good hands are good hands. I agree with Diamond Talons on this.

<Does it mean we all come to the same understanding eventually, regardless of how it manifests in our hands?>

I thinks so. We all learn how to hit and not be hit. Other understandings that also come along the way may be different for each of us though. Some may mix martial arts with Buddhism/religion and relate Kung Fu to Buddhism/religion. Some people may mix Kung Fu with ego and relate their skill with their ego. We can mix our Kung Fu with anything and we will have many different ways of looking at our Kung Fu, but deep down underneath we hit and dont get hit....I hope :-))))

<Is it a condition of the mind, or an understanding of the art, or a level of physical achievement?>

I believe it is a combination of all of the above. Development of harmony of mind (intent/awareness), body (muscle control/strength, breathing, relaxation), and the art of putting it together beautifully and efficiently like beautiful caligraphy. I guess we end up simply "doing" Kung Fu.

<And, what are the lessons that take you there?>

Perhaps we are there but dont know it. Perhaps I need to do another 10,000 repetitions a day and I will get there eventually. If "there", as you say, means achievement and understanding of the art.

Just some mad ramblings from Buddhapalm.

Cheers

[Cody]

the place, to me, is union of body, mind and spirit which is made manifest. The specific art is a vehicle, a style, a personal preference, which leads to the above. that union and the changes it brings. the manifestation is of the self in its unbridled and purest sense. What is, whether balanced or not; what is with trained ability to act and project.

Cody

[fiercest tiger]

Talking Heads song was the key..........where on a road to know where.

[needlefist]

FT,

Is that nowhere or 'know'-where?

Big difference...

[lungyuil]

To me it means that no matter what style you practice. the end result is the same.

Look at interrnal styles, they start off internal then go external and with external styles it is vice versa, yet the result at the end of the day is exactly the same.

different roads suit different people during different stages in their lives.

I know that i met my sifu 3 years prior to training with him. I first called him about training and he put me onto another teacher because of my previous style. Then 3 yrs later i started training with him and been going ever since.

that is my understanding of the saying. If it is meant to be then no matter which path you take, you will get to the same point.

This works in all aspects of life. I have experienced it first hand and still experience it every day.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Talking Heads song was the key..........where on a road to know where.

Pun intended methinks!

[fiercest tiger]

Yes, you are correct! Thanks for picking up my mistakes..............

FT

[Yum Cha]

"Know where?" "nowhere?" works for me...

Thank you all for your considered answers. All interesting and thought provoking. There is little one could find to disagree with but some quite varied perspectives.

For me, it comes to many things. Life and death, most assuredly on one level. To a open hand beyond style, certainly, on another level. Psychologically if not stylistically... One reason I agree with DT that the art travels with the man, not simply by its own strength.

Or even perhaps an inner peace that renders the whole study of violence secondary to the pursuit of internal discipline? Enlightenment of sorts, to each their own...?

So, is it a result of external or internal efforts? Is it trained, or discovered?

I reckon there is a bit of both happening, if you are in good hands...

[fiercest tiger]

There is a poem for the road, it goes...

13 bricks
yellow road
wicked witch, wicked hands


YOU GET THIS?

OR

could these roads just be telling us that there is 13 ways to enter ur opponent?

ask the RTA they should know....hahahah

ok im out!

FT

[buddhapalm]

<I reckon there is a bit of both happening, if you are in good hands...>

Good hands, another pun :-)))

<So, is it a result of external or internal efforts? Is it trained, or discovered?>

I believe in a nutshell...both.

The internal need creates internal desire.
The internal desire creates internal efforts.
Internal efforts find an external teacher
An external teacher can point to an internal mind.
An external teacher develops an internal skill.
An internal mind is awakened and can see.
An internal skill is developed and can be used.

(Internal and external not relating to Internal/External Kung Fu styles, but internal and external influences)
(Teacher can be any outside person, book, experiences or external influence)

<Or even perhaps an inner peace that renders the whole study of violence secondary to the pursuit of internal discipline? Enlightenment of sorts, to each their own...?>

I believe every action contains violence of some kind. The warmth of the sun is created by intense violent burning of gases. The freedom we enjoy is due to the violence of our forefathers and protectors. The food we enjoy is due to the violence of the butcher. There is no "living" without violence.

To me violence is simply the use of force. It is called "violence" because "human" morals disdain the use of force on each other. But violence is still basically force applied to create the needed effects. To intimidate, to impress, to invade, to conquor. It is the force required to benefit in certain situations. Benefit a person, a political group or a country.

So to me violence is force. Kung Fu is the mastery of violence and force. Therefore attempting to master Kung Fu teaches us how to master force in any and all applications. A circular block is no different than a circular argument by a diplomat. An evasive step is no different than military guerilla warfare. One hour horse stance is no different than a grueling lifetime facing adversity. To me Kung Fu teaches us to use and master force. Our own and that of the universe.

With this in mind, to me it makes the whole study of violence first and foremost.

Sorry for blabbing too much.

Cheers