Question about one of the principles in the mantis system?

[RAYNYSC]

Thanks for your responses on this guys as it has clarified my understanding of this principle.Loki that brake down was on the money if you ask me. By the way Mantis 108 & Mantis Seeker I have a question: Based on your statement reguarding the way sifu's teach,do you think that they may limit the principles to just one technique & pass it off to their students as such because they were taught that way & they just don't know any better? Or do you think they hold out on this information on purpose.
I mean the way I see it, it just might be a mixture of all the above no one truly knows except the sifu himself. Thats why I feel that the student should seek out as much information as he can in order to get a better or a complete understanding of set principle & or technique that he/she is learning.

Peace

[mantis_seeker]

Hi Ray,

I can't make a general statement that all teachers are a certain way. When I first started learning I had a lot of questions. "Can I do this against this, what does this mean ....?" etc.. and my sifu would answer them. Just because I heard what he said didn't mean I understood though.

A good sifu is trying to help you learn and that often means giving you what you can handle and not what you want. I really wanted to learn Tong Long Toe Tau my first year after I had seen my Sibak perform it. But if my sifu taught that to me I wouldn't know how to perform it correctly, I'd just be waving my hands in the air and jumping around. And if he tried to explain everything about the form to me I wouldn't have understood because I didn't have a firm grasp of the basics yet.

On the other hand there are a lot of frauds out there. I think sifu Cottrell said it best that a lot of teachers can show you the textbook example of a technique but thats it.

I think some sifu's are secretive because they got burned from a past student. Others only just barely learned the system and are calling themselves masters. And others are students of fake masters that took them for a ride, and yes, they don't know any better.

So yes, a student needs to do his or hers homework. But if you find you have a good sifu, one who is willing and openly sharing what he knows, who he learned if from, and can apply it, then maybe we should ask ourselves if we are doing more harm than good by trying to get more info before we are ready.

Sorry about that ... I'm not trying to feed the "Sifu knows best" BS just trying to show it from another side.

mantis_seeker

[mantis108]

Hi RAYNYSC,

I agreed with Mantis Seeker.

Also I think that a lot of time, as students, people tend to stick with one defination and/or one use of a technique. In fact, a lot of the older generation Sifus encourage that. When further development happens (from either side), students would think that the Sifu hide secrets from them. Personally, I don't think it is a healthy nor prudent approach to Kung Fu. But then that just me.

Regards

Mantis108

[loki]

Hello Mantis 108,

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that it is okay for a student to just learn one technique per principle ? I doubt that is what you mean but could you elaborate on what it is the Sifu's you mention would encourage?

Thank you.

[mantis108]

Hi Loki,

I am not saying it is okay to learn one technique as the principle. I am mere saying that novice in the begining would have the tendency to try to grasp a meaning of the principle with a technique. It is a way to quickly gain some orientation in an otherwis chaotic learning process. Principle sometimes are abstract and globle while technique is more tangible and local. In the old days, a lot of the Sifus were not articulate. So instead of explan in fine details the subtle differences, they would rather show a technique [ie an upward block] as the principle [ie Gwa]. So the upward block easily stick in the novice mind as gwa in the beginning. After awhile through hard work a better understanding of the principle becomes clear and more "examples" of the same principle are found. This might lead the students to think that the Sifu has been holding out on them. What the Sifus actually encouraged is for the student to stick with what is given to them until further notice. It does 2 things 1.) to exert authority 2.) he has tighter control in transmiting the art. But then that's the old way.

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Just for your info that if you wondered about why it was originally called Gua. It is the same way Go was named.

It has to do with old traditional Chinese house structure. There used to has a cloth-drapery in to door way. A person must hook the drapery up and/or hang it in order to go through the door.

Both Go and Gua are deflecting hand techniques, often it will be completed with a Bu-Chuan (filling punch).

Go and Gua has to do with how you hang up the drapery and the Bu-Chuan is the person who walked into the door way form the opened drapery. And the drapery is the deflected strike form your opponent.

Hope that will be helpful for the people who would like to know the orgin.

[PaulLin]

One big missed point is that you will have to hide under what you hook and hang up in order to get inside, so blocking up with your body stood too tall is not a good idea, you will get your head bumped on the top frame of the door. Stay lower with your stance will make it work better. Oh, also don't forget to walk into the door way IN TIME once you opened it, don't stand there and reatch with arm only. You can end up in an arm-wrestling match instead of complete the move correctly.

[mantis108]

Long time no hear. Hope you are well. As always, your posts are very helpful and informative. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

It shouldn't ever resemble an upper block from karate!
B.T

[B.Tunks]

I agree with Paul Lin's origin of gua as 'hang'. Also with mantis 108, in that although one technique can not define the entire principle, it can provide a basic understanding for some.
B.T

[Mr.Binx]

As for using this technique, you have to realize the positions that you will be in during combat when performing the maneuver. Your body is often going to be pushed into situations where the forms you've learned will still be there but on a much more loose/relaxed level (if you practiced enough with the pressure of an opponent at least) that it may not even be apparent until your form goes rigid. I think the main reason that gua is taught at early stages is becaus it is preparing a single hand to use the basic structure and movement of most of the seven star arm techniques that you will be performing. This structure allows you to instinctively use geometry as tool to for combat. When these movements become familiar you will begin noticing it in the more advanced movements from simple blocks, through throws, to strikes, etc. By then gua should be horribly familiar to you and much more natural as you will be using the technique often (only at different angles).

Please, realize that these are only observations from someone who's rather new to the physical practice and application of seven star, so my theories of what I've followed with my eyes may be horribly flawed. I started classes last month under Fort Worth's Sifu Steve Cotrell (an awesomely nice & humble guy). I have been very impressed with the ideas behind the techniques in this art. The hardest part, I perceive, is going to be learning my body to do these things instinctively. My feet are hating me.

[seung ga faat]

In our programs I teach a drilling method call 4 hands/say sao. This excercise has three stages;stationary,shifting,and stepping.
Here are the four hands:
1.pek- cleave
2.kwa- suspend
3.dip- fold
4.gwat- slant
The drill is used to teach connected movement, along with movement possiblities.This drill is done until the student developes lung bihn.
Mantis is based on ideas and principles of movement which seek to mimic the character and of things that are not human. Imagination and daring are key in this exploration,along with belief and loyalty.
________
volcano classic review
________
Kitchen Measures

[Tainan Mantis]

On a recent thread some questions were posted on the term gua/hang from 12 keywords.

In this old thread on page one I made a poor translation from a WHF book.

His description of gua is a type of mo pan or triple plucking hand.
My shrfu did not use this defintion of gua to mean triple plucking, though we learned the same drill as WHF described.

Also, WHF mentions that this is one of his 1st 5 san shou/ free fighting techniques.

[German Bai Lung]

Okay, I agree with you guys that there is more than one known applikation of one principle! That is sure....
My problem (look at the 12 key thread!) is: do you interprete different moves as gua because of the defensive character?

I think every good style must apply every principle - no: every technique in many different situations: you can´t fight with a technique by training like: ok, please attack now with the right - no not the left!! - hand, good, now I defend and counter and you please kick with the left leg and so on ... you get it?

With other words: gua must work fine on attacking with left or right, against huen choi or tong choi, bang choi or even a high kick! Therefor it will look everytime a slight different! But it will be gua all the time!

But when you apply tsa choi (block horizontal with the arm like in tan tui/tan toi) it will be tsa choi and not another variation of gua....

I hope instantly I understand all the posts right and you guys are not trying to say something total different...

[Mr.Binx]

Wow... I remember this post. Been awhile.

We have been drilling with kwa tong choi (upper block and straight punch) quite extensively since this message was originally posted 6 months ago. I have found that the kwa is alot more than a simple block against attacks coming against your upper-quadrant.

Take for example, what happens when an individual is coming at you with a haymaker or hook punch. The basic synopsis is that kwa keeps the aggressor in an offensive posture, leaving them open for the tong choi, as well as preventing the oncoming blow from connecting. What I find fascinating is that there is so much more going on.

When initial contact is made with the opponent's arm a filing deflection of the blow is made as kwa is coming to bear. The friction caused by the filing of kwa againt the attacking arm has a slight effect of pulling the attacker into your space and enhancing his/her momentum in your direction.

At the same time as the kwa is being performed with one arm, your other arm is performing tong choi. The tong choi uses the movement of your shoulders and clavicle from kwa as a fulcrum, causing your striking fist to gain an immense advantage. Your own spiral torque and momentum of movement joins forces with the attacker's momentum (which kwa is likewise encouraging) to help your attack proceed through their waiting, undefended body. ... Whee!!! How can you not love this stuff!?

I will not be surprised if I find alot more to kwa when my training time regarding this technique has doubled. I have an immense respect and thanks for individuals who have put so much thought and hardwork into the dynamics of techniques such as this and allowed them to be passed on to others.

Edit: I felt kind of iffy about using the term 'filing' when referring to the contact made by kwa and the opponent's technique. There's more a feeling of sticking and rolling the attacker into you on lateral attacks like a haymaker. The filing (or light grinding) I mentioned seems more noticeable to me against strikes that come in on a vertical trajectory like a chop or hammerfist.