Shape shifting yin and yang

[fiercest tiger]

OKAY and asswhoopping as well!


for the guys that say im sorrrrrrrrrrry!!!

FT

[crumpet]

Originally posted by nospam
Geeze guys - -don't forget the simple arsewhoopn'. No need to mame or make life or death calls every time one has a fist thrown at him/her or throws a fist.

If you can pummel your opponent senseless or perhaps break something- a job well done!

nospam.

exactly. isn't that why sifus are so selective of who they teach? because the power to hurt someone isn't to be taken lightly, let alone kill someone. i'd be ashamed of myself if i taught a person who would kill someone just because they got punched in the face. what if they had family? if it was obvious they wanted to kill (for example. they have a weapon or don't stop even after u neutralize them) then as the victim you make the choice to do the right thing. if you have family, then the situation warrants excessive force. but you do it with compassion, i.e. make it a quick clean death. kung fu was traditionally taught with 'religion' anyway (shaolin temple and wudang were not ONLY martial places but more religious than anything) so to seperate the two is an imbalance of martial arts training imo. one does not necessarily have to be buddhist/taoist/whatever, or to even study the philosophy, but morals and values should be a part of the mindset of fighting in general. another case of yin and yang balance right there!

[Diamond Talons]

No Crumpet kung fu was not taught first in temples it was taught first family to family in the world outside the temples & when temples came it went inside & became used for spiritual things in some temples & temples had fighting Monks who were different than other Monks. Not opinion & is a fact. Some peoples shoot guns or shoot arrows as a way to spiritual path & this was not why the weapons were created but it is a use for which man found in time & this is okay & better than fighting but it is not the first intent so who is more pure in their hand would you say the person who uses shooting for meditation or the person who trains their kung fu for killing & trains spiritual for the spiritual? Not imbalance & perfect yin yang as one thing for one thing & another thing for another & not mix the two but let balance show itself by practice. You suggest making decisions when fighting to say when is enough & I don't know life this way & saying I'm going to neutralize some guys is good way for my Children & Grandchildren to get invite to my funeral.

[Lao_Peng_You]

Diamond Talons is right. I don't think he's saying one should run around in a rage picking fights to kill people. On the contrary, a person who is willing to attack a peacefull man should understand the consequenses of his actions. If that person has a family he should be ashamed of himself for assaulting someone, knowing he may be risking everything. I primarily study Ba Gua, and in the older texts that have been given to me, there is no mention of religion. Understanding Yin and Yang, yes, but not religion. My teacher said to me on many occasions there are no ethics in fighting. Also, we train with the intent that what we are doing is deadly. The more Yang capable you become, the more Yin understanding you will achieve. Once you throw off unnecessary baggage, the more clarity you'll have.

I think that studying good kung fu will give you tools to better understand the spiritual and the natural world around you, but is not inherently a part of martial arts.

[Diamond Talons]

LPY you say it much better than me & yes that is the point I tried to make.

[crumpet]

i never said that kung fu was taught first in temples, but that the famous temples that progagated kung fu taught it in conjunction with 'religion' (i don't consider buddhism and taoism to be religion but that is how the west classifies them) i suppose spiritual practices would be closer to the mark. i am interested in reading how kung fu was taught first within the family. can you please direct me to some links? thanks in advance.

[fiercest tiger]

Well said Sir!

FT

[Diamond Talons]

Crumpet I don't think there's Internet stuff on how families taught & I haven't seen any but I'm not a computer guy so maybe there is. My family records kung fu like marriage, death, when & where we move to & stuff like that & not a section like this is the kung fu history of our family or different chapters people might say & it is all mixed in as it is part & not whole by itself. Okay to temples thing as you now say it I understand what you said before differently & all I can do is say temples like any other place & hand change according to how each person learns it so temple have a certain flavor then this flavor would be in hands that come from temple & not the best at all. More outside than inside the temples & more violence & more chances to use the hand & more need for good hands outside than inside is my point okay? I can only say how I was taught & how I learn today according to how I was taught & I don't think many people care to go this way as it is no fun hard word always more hard work lots of pain early on for first few years & dangerous always getting more dangerous as time goes on. Not a club kind of place to sit around drinking tea talking about good hands & only for doing the hands & most of the talk that happens happens through the hands & only sometimes sit & listen to story that tells me something it takes time & hard work to understand otherwise it's just a nice story about some dead guy.

[Cody]

I know of one martial artist. top notch. soft on outside; hard as nails within; the soft could mask the hard and it could go in reverse. coexisting energies which shifted in ways I don't understand. His body position was irrelevant. That was part of his training.
I have come to find the terms "hard" and "soft" not effective for me. It seems more a matter of "material" and "immaterial" (transparent). And then, there is shen. Put all together, with physical and mental conditioning, applications of the energies and positioning (because we are physical beings), and I think an advanced goal can be reached.

In truth, I made whatever progress I did after I dropped consideration of Yin/Yang and concentrated instead on No-Mind, which sent me in a different direction. That is not to say that these concepts are mutually exclusive. Rather, my feeling is that they are different parts of a warrior's puzzle, and one doesn't lead to the other unless there is training to develop and connect them.
I think that the chemistry and practice of "material" and "immaterial" within a trained body and mind requires a transformation that amounts to part of the martial arts alchemy which is apparent in the advanced master.
I personally never believed that one of the keys was in the postures (relative positions of hands and legs, etc., making an arm Yang or a leg Yin), or the way one might think of hard and soft as expressed in a mundane physical way. In other words, if one has the training, the postures one presents are not necessarily meaningful, as the energy shifting is deceptive, faster than thought, and not dependent on posture at all. Something doesn't add up, or something is missing. It can be like standing in horse stance without ever sinking and circulating energy by will. not going past a certain point in that circulation. After much training which incorporates aspects other than simply standing there, the stance is no longer necessary in order to accomplish a feat of energy. Maybe in the next lifetime, if there is one, the "material" "immaterial" will become clear to me in terms of direct training and experience, without many words.

I would agree that a defensive state of mind and strategy is a disaster.

I would agree that realistic interactions are necessary, and that the element of danger in some context must be present at times. It's part of the training itself. The limits set depend on degree of control.

I also feel that martial arts do not require a religious or spiritual basis for their practice. However, if one is trained otherwise in focussing the mind and intent, then that will be reflected in martial arts work, and the results could be remarkable.

As part of a general definition of martial arts, there need be no rules of behavior. Yet, when we go beneath the conscious mind and into our spiritual energies, that sort of warrior needs to be concerned about his spiritual state, if only as part of Clarity of Intent. Hence, imo, the advanced KF fighter has the additional challenge of monitoring his spiritual energy and how it is influenced. It matters if he is full of hatred because that can be used to manipulate him, not because it isn't nice. While this sort of process is not inherently part of making war, it is part of responsibility for what one thinks and does from which the warrior is not, imo, exempt. It's also part of trusting who is fighting at your side.

I do feel that the "material" energies, on whatever level need to be developed, but not depended upon exclusively. Having good and healthy "hard" energy does not necessarily lead, in my view, to consideration of anything other than that unless there is a profound conscious choice to do so.

best I could do on this one. kind of uneven and not as clear as I would like, but I'm interested enough in the thread to take a chance.

Cody

[Diamond Talons]

I only get some of your post Cody & not your writing just that I'm stupid & small education sure hurts me sometimes like this so I just say yin yang are just words & not so much the words as what the words mean & this is case where same words might mean different stuff to different people but they still get to where they want to go just the same. Amazes me it does & tells me not to hang on words but look hard for meaning that means something to me & just for me it has to be something I can do something with.

[Cody]

Yes! That is very so. We do find our own meanings and our own ways.
I guess what I would like to know is the correct method(s), not the words. Where to put the mind, and what the real training consists of.

I don't think that Concentrating on the hard and soft is the way to go. this is not something I've had adequate progress with, so I cannot express myself past a certain point, and that is probably fortunate.

You're quite okay.

I'm trying to comprehend things which I believe require very special instruction, beyond talk of Yin and Yang. Without the experience, there is only surface knowledge. or, not much of anything at all. The physics of what is involved is beyond me. Knowledge of the physics doesn't give ability. very curious.

Yes, it comes down to something you can do something with. very true.

thank you,
Cody

[EAZ]

Perhaps my post could have been construed as a New Age one, and for that I should be severely wiped. Furthermore, I more than likely do not have as much experience, I presume, as some here at regulat street fighting.
HOWEVER
I do not see any constradictions between what I say and what is being posted on this thread. It seems as if as soon as you post the words Yi King or Yin Yang some people (rightefully intentioned) think), oh no another theoretical guy. These concepts, contrary to Western thought are above all PRACTICAL tools and not abstract philosophical intellectual concepts.

If you observe your opponent intently (even in an instant), you may simply understand immediately what type of attack he will make. This has to do with weight distribution, stance eye contact etc and can be simplified into a more compact notion of yin ynag energy or body form etc, This is NOT a more abstract view. You simply know immidiately what kind of strike your opponent will through and at what speed and whther he will followthrough with a succeeding strike or not and of what typeetc.

Recent practical example
On Christmas Eve, I has driving with my family through Paris towards the country when a guy on a scooter passed me by on the right side and then crashed into my front wheel of my car. I steped out of the car and after checking for dents walked up to the guy who was inspecting his scooter. I looked at him and said something like "rather hasty on a Christmas Eve are we?". And he looked at me and replied "what the **** is your problem?" (I translate French slang into English). And I said "you just passed me on the right, not a good thing to do, and crashed into my car." And he immidiately went into an agressive mode criticising me for my driving skills. I explain that it is him who should be saying sorry since he is the one who has made an illigal manoeuver etc... and that he shows not the slightest consideration for me. Being Christmas and in a rush, I look at him, tell him to think about what I just said and start to walk away to my car. And then he says "**** you " to me. I turn around walk up to him, call a person on the sidewalk as witness and challenge him to a dual in the street as his behaviour is really unacceptable. He starts talking again and threatening me, and so I slide up to him, and place the flat of my hand on his heart and tell him to go away. He never says sorry but mumbles something and goes off. All this to say (although this is just an example), I establish a bridge with the person (without hands) and am able to slide into his guard and close mine rather quickly. I beleive (he being inexperienced fighter) that he could not see a mental/physical opening in my character/gesture and was unable to hid his weakness and so I simply had the upper hand in terms of concentration, power and technic.

I am rambling.

This little altercation can be viewed from a "Yin /yang form/shape perspective" on many levels. I know that by standing a certain manner another person simply detects that another person is not affraid, has fought before etc.... and all this contributes to the resolution of combat.

(I know this is not a great example but has the merit of beging 72 hours old. I agree with all those saying that there is a way of training harder, more dangerously, more realistically etc. but I have no need/time/inclination to learn how to fight in this manner. I do not need this for my job or to survive in my environment. )

And yes while fighting monks were a sub group and small exception, the Oriental Tradition, as applied to many fields, emmanating from Budhisme/Taoism/Confucianism, CAN be applied and workedthrough martial arts. This is a fact. And I am not talking of philosophy.

Some people would like to reduce Chinese Martial arts to boxing when OF COURSE this is false. But there are / where different degrees of involvment of their martial arts with Oriental Tradition, depending on family etc. Some little some lots.

The simple fact that Dim Mak exists in relation to Eastern Medecine, which exists because of certain method of apprehending reality etc. shows that IF YOU WANT you can follow the line pretty far if you are talented enough. Or just know how to kill someone.

I'm not sure I've managed to proove my point. Sorry for the long post.

EAZ

[Diamond Talons]

Not sure what all you're saying EAZ but you put alot of effort into it & that shows you're serious about what this thing. I don't think saying kung fu stuff as boxing only is bad or wrong & for some people it is the right way for them & for other peoples they use it for things other than fighting & that's right for them but I don't say right or wrong for anyone just me. Young guys ask me stuff sometimes when they're bored or can't find a good answer for them & I've heard the concepts question before & I look it up in dictionary. I don't think like concepts EAZ & concept has too many things that have to be there for concept to make sense to me & I say principles after looking this word up too & it makes sense to me. You say you don't see any sense in my way & that is okay as it is your life & I don't claim to know life so well as to say I don't need to do this because of that since I don't know what life has for me in the next moment so I prepare as best I know how. What would you say about earning dangerous hands if scooter guy had pulled a knife to cut out your heart & wreck took place where some guys on the street were his friends & they join in to kill you what would you say now EAZ if this had happened & you had lived to talk about it? I don't limit anything in life and say that the best I can think of now hasn't happened yet & the worst I can think of now hasn't happened yet & always say yet because I don't know life past right now.

[EAZ]

Sorry if my post did not make sense. It did in the beginning in my mind at least, but somehow got deviated along the way.

You are of course right: I have no idea how things would have gone had the person been very agressive, had had friends with him or had threatened my family. I suspect I would have returned to an animal level of "fight or flee"; either run off ****ing in my pants or become a wild animal and tried to pull their arms out. I sadly must admit today that after much practice, probably not enough of the right kind, that I do know for sure how I would react. This is a source of frustration.

Please forget my imput into this thread as it clearly does not seem to blend in harmoneously with what you all are saying apparently. Suffice to say that yes I beleive in not thinking when fighting (and no way of learning how to fight with theories), but no I don't believe in training based on fear mechanism (very emotionally agressive etc). In between, there is a broad streach me thinks.



EAZ

[Diamond Talons]

I don't forget your posts EAZ as it is something you put hard work & thought into & I don't think I'm right about anything except for just me that's all. Any of this thing is just opinion EAZ & not fact for me & no way to know if you are right or someone elses right past right now so you keep writing stuff & it is right for you & for you you are the only person that counts okay? Plenty of room for all peoples & all opinions & what I have seen of this thing tells me that for me to pay no attention to things other than what I say is to become a parrot in a cage & I like looking at parrots in cage but don't want to be one okay.