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Thread: Wu Gong Yee vs. Chan Hak Fu

  1. #31
    My sifu was good friends with Chan Hak Fu later in his life and had always heard about the match, one day he actually found the video tape. He stuck it in the school VCR, we watched it ONCE and he was so embarassed he took it and we've never seen it again, it was real bad

    But there is a LONG, LONG article in a magazine recently making it sound like it was some profound, "secret technique laced" master vs master clash that us poor normal Westerners simply can't appreciate

    It was bad, end of story

  2. #32
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    Originally posted by Walter Joyce
    That fight has been documented, discussed, analyzed, dissected and argued about from here to Bangkok and back again. Suffice to say its not worth finding the video or viewing it either. You'll be disappointed in the quality.
    Three pages later, I stand by my assessment.
    The more one sweats in times of peace, the less one bleeds in times of war.

  3. #33
    so i was right? ...i think???

    thought it wasn't as NHB as some ppl were suggesting so crimson where can u get access to the actual rules from? i'd like to have a look just for personal interest.

    its cool walter i'm interested in reading other ppl's opinions as ii've only watched it recently. i have picked up the reasons why ppl find fault with the fight or don't like it, etc.
    but i stand by the fact that some of those strikes mr chan used are easily recognisable by pak hok ppl as basic strikes in the system. the fight has some good things in it but i don't believe its the best fight i've ever seen. anyway i think i should leave this to rest now on my part. i feel i'm caught between a rock and a hard place (is that the correct expression??)...

    anyway i enjoyed watching it as i've heard about this fight for a long time and now have finally had a chance to watch it.

    all this christmas food has gotten my a bit balloony now. i'm going to go train now.

    regards,
    friday

  4. #34
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    Friday, I think what you are saying makes a lot of sense: There are perhaps some nuggets to look at and go "ah!, not too shabby." But overall "Wow, this really sucked."

    I think that's just a fine assessment.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  5. #35
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    Some friend of mine who has direct access to chinese sources...don't worry, I'm not making it all up :-)

    Merry, it's an important problem you raise here (a major one indeed): putting everyone on a pedestal due to the impressive term of "master"...we can still give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to an old "master" who we never seen fight. But we have to keep our lucidity and objectivity and call a lame fight a lame fight...else it will do no good by pushing CMAs into the world of fantasies even more, with every other fighting arts scoffing at us.
    Lucidity is a key component of martial training. Lucidity implies honesty and objectivity.
    I too am persuaded CMAs have gems to offer...it's been 5 years I practice them now, after 4 years of savate, and not one moment I doubted that CMAs were at least as good if not better. But we have to keep our eyes open and our lucidity in action. CMA do not need people living in fighting fantasies, but lucid people training hard and pragmatic when it comes to combat. That also mean that we shouldn't fall in the fantasy realm and try to see subtleties or hidden knowledge behind even crappy fights just because they are CMA and "they are masters, you don't understand their high level and blah blah".
    Risk 0 doesn't exist.

  6. #36
    hmmm...sigh i'm retyping this the second time now after some glitch happened posting the reply. grrrr...

    anyway to CP - don't worry i wasn't saying u were making things up. my comments about the rules were based upon discussion with a friend in the internal arts and watching the clip and listening to the commentary. i'm just glad to hvae them confirmed by someone else.

    hi MP - i think u may have taken my comments a bit too far. in summary my thoughts are that there were some good things i saw in the fight and some things i didn't like. having already sensed the general feel for the fight in forums i thought it would be beneficial to have someone with some background in the TWC to offer a few comments on the positive things. I still disagree with comments made earlier about wild punches and 'no power'. its often a mistake made ppl outside the pai. i have had the chance to change the mind of a few ppl in sydney while sparring with a friend of mine. of course u will all hav eto take my word for it .

    anyway, we should just agree to disagree with each other on particular aspects of the fight.

  7. #37
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    Well, if that is your viewpoint, it is clear that I misinterpreted what you had to say. I apologize for putting words in your mouth, so to speak. Ooops.

    And we certainly MUST agree to disagree, because I still think it looked like crap . No offense to you or anybody else intended, just my opinion.

    Cheers!

    James
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  8. #38
    At the risk of being offensive to some who are affiliated with both camps, (oh well, here we go again)....

    In the 1950's in Hong Kong, fighting had come to a stand still for simple reasons

    Traditionally, there was little to no sparring done in schools, heck, group classes was not much of a common thing even

    and in HK, there was not a lot of fighting going on because it was a British colony under the rule of law (and police who would smack the top of your head with a club just to be friendly LOL)

    OK, so you have never sparred and you have never fought, I don't care how much technique or lineage you have, you are not going to perform well in your first real life, adrenaline fueled, high stress situation

    Frankly, they looked like people when the spar for the first few times, throwing some stuff, poor defense, adrenaline contributing to poor body control

    Nothing profound, nothing "secret", any attempt to paint this match as something of the sort is wishful thinking. Take away the "context" and just show the fight, and most people here would be making faces and then jump on the bandwagon of blaming and denegrating

    If you criticize the average San Shou contest, this makes grade C level guys look like pro's

  9. #39
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    lkfmdc,

    Good point about how it makes the C level guys look. I was immediately reminded of two guys who had about 6 months (of not very good) training each who fought MMA in VA beach. It ended when (I kid you not) one of the guys turned his back and ran to the corner. When the other guy was in hot pursuit, the fellow in the corner CLOSED HIS EYES, turned in a 180 and caught his opponent on the jaw with the wildest haymaker I'd ever seen.

    Ugh.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  10. #40
    ok... if that was such a bad fight in your opinions then what dictates a good fight?? please be specific "poor defence" and "poor body control" do not explain anything, why did he have poor body control?? how can you tell?? different styles have different stances, do you do their styles?? what about adaptation skilled fighters are able to adapt how can you tell their actions were adapted, improvised or purposeful, when do fights look good since this one looked "crap" other than in the chinese movies of course, because i dont quite understand why it was so bad when most of you say it was crap without giving explainations (excluding the posts that did). I my self did post saying i liked the fight very much but without giving an explanation and so many were quick to rebut my post without even asking why???

    And finally i would like to ask could you have done better?? considering the fact it was one of the biggest events in china at the time also would you be able to fight in those situations or even agree to fight in a DEATH match in front of a nation imagine the pressure and expectations put on your shoulders heart pounding in your chest????

    i think they disserve great respect just getting up there and is the reason why i thought it was one of the best fights ive seen in a long time.

  11. #41
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    type01

    I honestly have a similar opinion to you, i didnt like everything i saw but i understood a lot about why some of the things happened which did. If you have some exposure to both styles you can also have a better indication of why some things happened the way they did.

    I dont want to do this again becouse ive been though all before however a few quick points.

    Wu style exponents hands seem to be kept at waist level: White crane exponents are famous for being able to hook peoples bridges into strikes. Only a fool would leave a solid bridge outstreached when fighting a white crane stylist.

    White Crane stylist seems to only throw his basic fists mainly consisting of swinging punches: He is fighting a Tai Chi guy, he knows darn well that grappling or getting in to close will likely put him in a position he doesnt want to be in. Hence he trys to keep a middle distance and basicaly knock the Wu exponents head off using power shots. He makes the mistake early in the second round of getting in to close and gets wrapped up and clobbered pretty darn quickly.

    Wu exponent uses many strait jabs: Commen mindset in small frame Tai Chi is to slip punches and return by filling the gaps, he uses jabs becouse he needs the speed and distance as his opponent is clearly trying to get in and out asap.

    Both fighters are knocked off balance - by each others punches. Strangely not so unusual. Still they both also do a great job of absorbing the force behind them, if you dont buy this then ask yourself how they manage to take so many shots without ever hitting the ground?

    There is pleanty more to see in that fight and like as well as lots of clear nerves and mistakes. Still there humans and there *not* professional fighters. Just two guys from various schools who aggreed to a ruled fight for charity. It was not a *real* fight and neither party wanted to actualy 'hurt' each other but both of course wanted to win. Add all that up and yes you basicaly have a school yard scrap. Neither wants to lose face infront of there mates but neither wants to get sent to the principals office either.
    There may have been contracts but no one wants to kill someone else on TV in whats supposed to be a match for charity.

    We should all move on and stop looking at this like its some kind of big show case. Its basicaly a sparring match that went horribly wrong fairly quickly.

    Just to be annoying... and stay in forum spirit...
    Royce woulda choked both of em!
    Up and down, forward and backward, left and right, its all the same. All of this is done with the mind, not externaly.
    ------------------------------------
    Shaped dragon and looking monkey, sitting tiger and turning eagle.


    "I wonder how they would do against jon's no-tension fu. I bet they'd do REALLY WELL."
    - Huang Kai Vun

  12. #42
    Jon (sorry Bai He),

    Still they both also do a great job of absorbing the force behind them, if you dont buy this then ask yourself how they manage to take so many shots without ever hitting the ground?
    Maybe it's because there wasn't any significant power behind most of the blows.

    There is pleanty more to see in that fight and like as well as lots of clear nerves and mistakes. Still there humans and there *not* professional fighters.
    At least one of the two guys was supposed to be a MASTER of the style.

    Professional or not, a master should at least be decent at what he's teaching.

    Just two guys from various schools who aggreed to a ruled fight for charity. It was not a *real* fight and neither party wanted to actualy 'hurt' each other but both of course wanted to win.
    First you said both did a good job of absorbing the other's strike, "if you dont buy this then ask yourself how they manage to take so many shots without ever hitting the ground?"

    Now you're saying it wasn't a "real" fight.

    So are you saying it wasn't a real fight, but both were throwing full-powered blows to the other?

    Add all that up and yes you basicaly have a school yard scrap. Neither wants to lose face infront of there mates but neither wants to get sent to the principals office either.
    So they decided on mutual embarassment?
    Last edited by Muppet; 01-01-2003 at 07:12 PM.

  13. #43
    ahhh muppet thought i should point out...yr quoting bai he instead of jon who actually was the one posting that stuff.

    also...your comment about the strikes perhaps having no power............................................. .........OMG. no offense...but u seriously have no idea about TWC. u really should try getting hit with some of those jabs and strikes thats the only way u'll know.


  14. #44
    type01,

    You can tell that the fight was poor from the way the punches were thrown.

    I'll stick to the tai chi guy, because I'm not too familiar w/ white crane.

    Most of the time, the punches looked like out-of-control b*tch slaps and not solid punches.

    - They weren't straight, solid punches where the strength comes straight from the ground.
    - It wasn't a body momentum driven punch either.
    Choy li fut uses turns of the waist to whip the fists around.
    Styles like Wing Chun (and boxing, as I'm finding out) uses the whole body to commit a power punch.
    Tai chi has strikes where waist twisting is essential too--deflect/parry/punch, brush knee, and repulse monkey come to mind.
    - On at least one occasion, the guy was readily tossed into the ropes and another time, the guy barely was able to stop spinning on a swing. Of ALL people, a tai chi guy should know better than to overcommit on his strikes.

    Like others have said, there may be some gems but the fight as a whole was terrible.

  15. #45
    Friday, since when did my criticism of the video and the two fighters extend out to all of white crane?

    Did I imply that white crane sucked?

    Or are you saying the white crane guy in the video was very good?

    Like I said, I don't know the white crane style very well--I know that they like to swing arms and kick high, and that's about it--so I can only make a judgement on the twc guy by proxy. The wu stylist was terrible--or if you want to be nice, what he put on display was absolutely awful--and the twc did not do anything significant to the wu stylist, therefore what the twc did probably wasn't too hot either.

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