Wu Gong Yee vs. Chan Hak Fu

[friday]

hi Muppet,

not implying u are speaking for the whole style. one point among others i dispute is that the strikes were without power in the clip. not knowing much about tai chi or the internal arts or its power generation except from discussions with ppl in those styles, i'd still be reluctant to say those strikes by Ng Gong Yee had no power. knowing a bit about TWC, power generation etc, i understnad the mechanics of those basic strikes Chan Hak Fu used. the way he applied them, he had power behind those strikes. they may not be exactly how i would have done them and many were diffused by Ng. but power isn't something they lacked.

if anything i think its something positive that Mr Ng was able to diffuse the power behind many of the basic TWC strikes, or was able to take the hit/partially diffused hit. one thing i didn't like was that it wasn't to an outsider like myself easily recognisable as tai chi. his main form of attack using jabs gave a very limited showcase of wu style tai chi.

for Mr Chan i would have liked to see more TWC in action. i can sort of relate to his circle walking and moving in and out, attacking and retreating etc. constantly on the move. becos i have done that with some success against an internal MA in a friendly sparring session together. of course i'm comparing myself yet a novice with a person at the time in the position of a master? or up and coming master?

don't get me wrong. this is something i've repeated many times. there are things i don't like in the fight. some of which i hvae already mentioned. there are just some things i dispute with such as the no power behind strikes comment.

my apologies muppet if my comments came across too strong. i think it comes from hearing ppl talk too much about no power behind strikes a bit too much in this thread and other places not just with this fight but with styles as well without really understanding power generation etc in a style. i don't really think that becos a guy doesn't drop from a strike thus translates to a lack of power.

anyway hope i've cleared up our little misunderstanding

[jon]

Muppet

Jon (sorry Bai He),
* My name is Jon no need for confusion. Its my real name as well as my forum name. Others can back this up if you wish. I have no idea why you put 'Bai He' there.

"Maybe it's because there wasn't any significant power behind most of the blows."
* Or maybe there was power to kill, maybe is a stupid word and unfit for a debate. If we are going to discuss issues then lets stick to facts. The fact that both opponents managed to knock each other off base with strikes was enough for me to realise there was certainly some good power there.

"At least one of the two guys was supposed to be a MASTER of the style. Professional or not, a master should at least be decent at what he's teaching."
*Wont argue with you here, however the term master is VERY subjective. Was it a title brought upon them from there respective organisations or was it simply a self proclaimed title?
What some call master i call stink and what some call student i call expert.

"First you said both did a good job of absorbing the other's strike, "if you dont buy this then ask yourself how they manage to take so many shots without ever hitting the ground?"
Now you're saying it wasn't a "real" fight.
So are you saying it wasn't a real fight, but both were throwing full-powered blows to the other?"
* Im saying there was power i never said 'full power' please dont put words into my mouth. It was not a real fight as there was no intent to seriously injure each other. As far as im concerned any fight which is organised in advance and has rules is NOT a 'real' fight.

"So they decided on mutual embarassment?"
* Your assement not mine, personaly i dont like a lot of things about that fight but there is still some things there to see and enjoy if your that way inclined.

Anyway to each there own

[Crimson Phoenix]

I really got to see the clip again...after seeing it 2-3 times back in the days I definitely made my mind up that the fight plainly sucked (I didn't say totally...just plainly). But seeing the posts here, I'm starting to doubt...I guess I must be quite blind for not having seen those seemingly obvious displays of mastery...anyway...from memory then...

First, I would like to take back my comment on white crane. I didn't know at the time it was tibetan white crane, and thought it was fujian white crane. Now my first reaction back in the days was "this doesn't look like any white crane I have seen, even in the lamest one". Now I know why, it just wasn't. I'm happy to see that contrary to what I thought, Chan used some principles of his style, at least in the swinging punches (and I won't comment on the rest, since my knowledge of TWC is very limited and extends only to these trademark punches among a few other common knowledge about it).

One little question...where were the stop kicks? The only true range control I have seen is an attempt to walk away by turning the back?? what the heck???...it's a definite no-no in a ring, even if in an open-space it could arguably work.
What kind of fighter would let his opponent get so freely at close range without ever trying to stop them in their tracks? Even boxers keep their opponents at range with a good use of jabs, how come these guys could litterally WALK at each other??

[jon]

From what little ive 'heard'.
The basic rules where to be three rounds.
No grappling (not dead sure on this)
No kicking above the waist.
I heard there where a few others as well like the obvious no groin or eyes.

The most important thing to remember...
Staged fight for charity... Not a bloodbath.
They had to put on something of a display, they where expected to make there fight last longer than a few seconds. They where litteraly required to draw it out. From what i heard the hope was for the fight to be similar in style to a western boxing match except without gloves.

The whitecrane guy turned his back in the first round becouse he was punched hard in the face. It actualy made his nose bleed quite badly (you can see this in the footage). Being a ruled fight he simply turned his back to indicate he was not ready to continue at that time. You can clearly see the Wu exponent behind him quite confused as well.

There are many things that where the way they where in that fight for a reason and i dont even pretend to know half of what went on. I do know that many people are way to quick to judge and most would not have been willing to do the same thing.

IMHO anyone who is willing to put themselfs and there reputation on the line infront of a crowd and TV cameras and all in the name of charity deserves a certain level of respect no matter what. These where extraordiary circumstances and in my opinion its highly unfair to try and say what these two men 'should' have done. They did what they could with what they had in an extraordinary circumstance - nothing to be ashamed of there.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I sort of agree with you, yet all this P.C. trend is kind of irritating. Here's where I disagree: the charity thing. It was a fight first, a money-raising event second for the sake of a martial discussion.
Actually it brings much more pressure to fight for your own wallet than to fight for a charity stuff. No matter how good (or bad) you do, it won't change much for you. However, having to fight for let's say 100 000$ for yourself tax free is sure an intimidating prospective.

But that is not the real question anyway, so forget (and forgive) my rambling: the real point is "do all charity fights have to be bad just because they are charity" ?? Of course not. So do the math...this fight was bad period. Charity or feud, organized or not, it wasn't a high quality fight. I don't know much about Wu style specifically, but I do have a little knowledge about taiji. And all I can tell you is that, at least in my eyes, I haven't seen any taiji principle applied here. Where were the peng? The jing? The relaxed shoulders, with the spine "hung by a thread to the sky"? Sticking hands? Redirection of power? I haven't seen any of these, or too few to be significant. All I seen was a couple of bouts between two people who would have been literally trashed by any good savate fighter of the same period. I know TWC and Wu taiji can do better. I know CMA in a whole can do much better. I know because I have seen. But definitely not in this clip.
This fight was low-level, whatever we can say about it. Or for thos of you who like it sugar-coated for your tender ears "this event was absolutely not worthy of people considered as masters under no excuse". We are talking about masters rights? Master is a big word to live up to, I agree. Yet, masters should be a term reffering to people who can definitely show high quality stuffs regardless of the environment.

To conclude, Jon I totally agree with you that anyone stepping in a ring deserves respect whatever the outcome of their fight is. the thing is that we are not cussing people here, we are discussing their fight. Earning respect for stepping up and saying "the fight was poor" are, or rather should be, two different things.
I also agree on the unfairness of comments such as "they should have done x or y". It's quite easy to know what should have been done in theory, in the comfort of a home or office, but inside the ring it's a whole different story. I myself was quite shocked when I would watch some tapes of some bouts I'd get into and wonder when analyzing my own moves "why the hell did I do this? It's so stupid" or "why didn't I do that, it was obvious??".

Indeed, these two men deserve the highest respect for stepping up for such a noble cause, and Wu even more because he wasfar from a youngster when he did. Nevertheless, I'm sorry but the "fight" or rather event was low-quality in my eyes, however close I looked at it...and God knows I tried to dissecate closely all stuffs of this legendary fight when I first got the video...but I didn't find anything. Or rather, as I said, I found things that were so inconsistent that I didn't take them into consideration.
There are good fight, there are bad fights. It would be silly to find excuses to make all fights look good, or saying they look good just because it is a hard and noble thing to climb in the ring under the eyes of 1000s of people.
It's actually not even a shame of losing or conducting a bad fight, because the one in the ring can always say "where were you when I stepped in? In the comfort of your chair". Yet I find it very irritating to endlessly find excuses to make everyone look good, and all that P.C. trend won't prevent me from saying "I THINK THE FIGHT LOOKED BAD". Or at least, the sugar-coated version "I think the fight should have looked MUCH better considering the status/reputation that both fighters were upholding".
This fight I found bad, because I have witnessed much better ones, in many disciplines, that took place during many different periods, even much older than these.

And by saying this, I play the game of honesty: when I do a bad fight, well, I expect people to let me know. And even if I can tell them "where were you when I was in the ring", I still have to realize that if I did a bad fight, well I just did a bad fight and nothing I can come up with will make up for that.

[lkfmdc]

fundamental Chinese martial art fighting theory, exploit leaks and seal your own. Totally absent in the fight

They have no control over their techniques. They throw and do not recover. They throw and open themselves up. The bloddy nose in question is the most obvious example. Chan uses incorrect footwork for "kahp choih" (I do Lama Pai, I can quite correctly dissect his technique) which opens him up to the straight punch, which sadly, isn't much of a jab and has no "jing" or power, quite obviously so. ie, failure to fully exploit that leak..

The fact that the "punches" knock each one around, they hop, they spin, etc, shows their lack of defense and their lack of rooting and their lack of balance

The fact that neither capitalizes on the first technique is poor martial art as well

I could go on but the point is simple, it was a bad fight...

[Muppet]

Jon,

Why so touchy over an honest mistake which was corrected before you even posted?

Or maybe there was power to kill, maybe is a stupid word and unfit for a debate. If we are going to discuss issues then lets stick to facts. The fact that both opponents managed to knock each other off base with strikes was enough for me to realise there was certainly some good power there.

The fact that both opponents were knocked off base mean absolutely nothing considering they unbalanced THEMSELVES half the time they swung their fists with any power.

For someone wishing to stick to facts, you seem to be turning a blind eye towards some blatant ones.

Wont argue with you here, however the term master is VERY subjective. Was it a title brought upon them from there respective organisations or was it simply a self proclaimed title?
What some call master i call stink and what some call student i call expert.

It's subjective in practice, but the term has definite qualifications to live up to.

At the very least, someone purporting to be a MA master of a style should be able to hold their own in a basic scuffle; if they can't, they don't deserve the title. Most would outright label such individuals frauds.

Im saying there was power i never said 'full power' please dont put words into my mouth. It was not a real fight as there was no intent to seriously injure each other. As far as im concerned any fight which is organised in advance and has rules is NOT a 'real' fight.

Let me put it another way: There are masters aplenty who've demonstrated their skill in a duel without permanently and seriously hurting the other individual; furthermore, as far as I know the outcome wasn't predetermined by these individuals (i.e., it wasn't fixed) and it was a physical altercation where the aim was to win.

So why doesn't it qualify as a real fight?

And let's consider the old school Chinese bounty hunters: They were bound NOT to kill their quarry at the pain of death, so does it mean the bounty hunters weren't really fighting when they were fighting their quarry without resorting to killing?

The fact that it was a fight with some rules is no excuse for the overabundance of poor form and performance either: Do you think people spar in their respective schools with the intent of maiming their partner?

[fa_jing]

Throwing punches that fall two feet short is just poor. Sort of like when you're learning to drive and it's only your 10th time, you still can't tell what the boundaries are of your vehicle and you have to pay close attention just to stay in your lane and not clip parked cars. It really showed that these guys didn't have much free-sparring experience. There was no sense of, "this is what I've done 100 times in the past and what I found was most successful in dominating my opponent" - - rather, it looked like guesswork - and then inability to adjust, because when one has lots of fighting experience, they know that sometimes the plan goes out the window, and you have to adjust to plan B and plan C. Despite the rules, IMO you should spar under a variety of different rules, so you won't be surprised and you get the chance to work on different situations. I'm sure that their mentality was flawed in preparing for this.

[fragbot]

Having heard about this fight forever, I finally decided to watch it. Whether or not this is representative Wu style TJQ or TWC fighting, I have no idea, but I did have the following impressions:

1) The strikes appeared devoid of power. Maybe I missed the subtleties of the two arts, but I didn't see many focused punches.

2) The guys were clumsy as hell. Now, this might be due to the surface, but I for **** sure would've expected the TJQ guy to appear rooted.

3) Is there anyone else who felt their heart was in it? While the video was poor and I might've missed alot, it didn't really appear there was any investment in clobbering the other guy.

4) Did anyone else notice the limited number (quite frankly, I don't remember any, but that's probably hyperbole) of attacks to the midsection?

I've always thought it's a perfectly nice target--not as mobile as the head and a tad easier on a bare hand.

5) If I had paid $$$ to see this fight, I would've been disappointed.

6) Having watched kyukushin/enshin/seidokan/ashihara matches on tv, I (as much as it pains me to admit it) think it makes for much better tv 'cause they look like competent fighters instead of French bicyclists.

One other thing I wondered about was the number of combination techniques put together. I didn't look for that specifically (and I ain't gonna do the download again), but I can't remember if they chained technique together reasonably well or not.

Now feel free to call me a pr*ck or something.

[truewrestler]

I will not be able to read all of this thread until tonight but I must say that anyone that defends these fighters, for anything more than steping up to fight, is being rediculous. The bottom line is the fight was horrible and both of the fighters were horrible.

And finally i would like to ask could you have done better?? considering the fact it was one of the biggest events in china at the time also would you be able to fight in those situations or even agree to fight in a DEATH match in front of a nation imagine the pressure and expectations put on your shoulders heart pounding in your chest????

I'm not kidding one bit when I say that I could beat either of these guys with my "training only a few times in the last 2 years" ass, and someone like MerryPrankster would humiliate them. That also goes for the hundreds of thousands of MMA fighters, Boxers, Kickboxers, Judoka, BJJers, Wrestlers, etc around the world.

It is painfully obvious that these guys simply didn't spar or fight much if any in their martial arts "career". They would have absolutely no chance against a decent amateur MMA Fighter, Kickboxer, Wrestler or Boxer.

I my self did post saying i liked the fight very much but without giving an explanation and so many were quick to rebut my post without even asking why???

type01 - you really need to watch MMA, Kickboxing or Boxing to understand how bad this was. Check out the highlight reels at http://www.Sherdog.com/videos/highlights.htm and the videos in the "Fight Clips" section at http://www.FightTraining.com

I beg of you

edit: for some reason I thought type01's post was the last, not sure why... oh well

[lkfmdc]

this just in - Tai Chi people claim absolute victory, citing Dim Mak attack that does not appear on video because it is too fast and too secret

Evidence of this? Chan Hak Fu indeed passed away a mere 45 years later.....

[friday]

thats not rite...he is alive and well last time i saw him. Actually when i went to Macau two years ago i did ask Mr Chan about Mr Chan Tai San whether he knew him and he said yes they were friends .

anyway someone has started a new thread on the kf forum page referring to two fight clips one of which is the NgvsChan. sigh...hope we don't have to go thru all this again...

[jimmy23]

those guys were horrible. Period.

They had no idea how to punch in combinations.

They had , at best, adequete punching power. At best.

The one guy kept turning his back on his opponant .

They threw looping haymaker punches that wouldnt hit anyone who does even a little bit of full or medium contact sparring.


As for the crap here about how they should be respected for fighting in front of a crowd, etc, then youd beter extend massive respest to the tens of thousands of kickboxers, grapplers, and boxers that do that all the time.


Not to flame, but if you see anything other than two guys who were pretty close to clueless, then you dont know anything about real combat. Thats the nicest way I can that

[type01]

first of all i'd like to address truewrestler

in my limited experiences of MMA and of a Judoka i know in my head that even with my background Mr Chan would beat the holy**** out of me Mr Ng didnt call him lightning fist for nothing 6 straight punches in a second no matter how good you are you cant defend against that unless you move but as you can clearly see in the first volley he could change angles and still be in your face.

i would also like to ask why was it crap was his punching crap??footwork??you prob. dont even do his style how do you know his punches were weak(like so many like to say)??No their punches are not weak.

which brings me to another point Jimmy23 you dont do their style do a lil research Tibetian White Crane have alot of very different punches to MMA therefore punch combinations are different, you refered to Mr Chan turning his back to the opponent look carfully he kind of flinches and goes into a backfist position but stops and walks away also maybe he could of been taunting by mucking around?? You call it a Haymaker but its not may look similar but its not, contrary to your beliefs it is very very fast prob. very very painful.

lkfmdc how can you tell his foot work is bad in the kup choi?? you cant even see his feet?!?!?! you see his thighs?? you of all ppl should know there was defence after Mr Chan changes tactics he barely get hit ask yourself why??

why is everyone still posting it was crap but still not giving reason ??if you have reasons why it was crap it would be much eaiser to disscuss, im not trying to take away freedom of speech please voice your opinion as i have but also be specific a good example is friday's post clearly stating what he thought was good and what he thought was bad and his final opinion.

most prob. believe this fight looked clumsy or was crap any ametuer MMA would kick there arses sideways but think about it styles of fighting are very different eg kickboxing is very defensive compared to kung fu which is very open you tell even by the tornaments boxing ring very small, kung fu ring comparably massive. Watching kickboxing and MMA is very common now and to see a totally oppisite way of fighting very open non super defensive is difficult to not comapre it to kickboxing and see it for what it is.

[jimmy23]

yea, when you turn your back because youre flinching from a punch, thats a very tricky strategem....

and when you throw a looping rear hand punch, and your head moves in along a straight line towards your opponant, well, there is no way even an amatuer boxer would knock your block off......

a fight is a fight, and these guys were not even decent fighters.