Wu Gong Yee vs. Chan Hak Fu

[truewrestler]

Merryprankster = Wow

Thanks for the explanation.

[friday]

Hey Walter,

Those same crappy burgers make zillions of dollars!!! Besides your focusing on the wrong thing, its the business systems in place and growth from real estate Mcdonalds franchises are located at that sell those burgers and make zillions of dollars.

besides this thread can't be toooooo bad ppl keep coming back to view. i think its almost time for a challenge fight to start...how about it anyone???

lol

[friday]

seriously though, i like MP taking the time to put together a proper critical analysis from his broad fighting experience on the fight rather than the usual, the fight sucks...the end kinda post . i'm sure now everyone is gonna say hey!!! i was gonna say that haha. just joking guys.

btw also type01, lkfmdc is a bai see student of Grandmaster Chan Tai San lama arts specialist of the Lion's Roar system so i always have a lot of interest in what he has to say.

[Wongsifu]

Hey guys i have emerged from my closet of training and lurking the forum to post.
Ironically i have to agree with merryprankster fully on this issue that fight sucked . Ive been looking for footage of that fight for ages and all i can say is im soo happy to have seen it , and embarrased to say that i practise kung fu.Im still reeling from the shock of lack of anything remotely resembling tai chi or whatever.

[type01]

No i dont need a reality check i just needed a straight answer thank you for doing so MerryPrankster. Much more benificial wouldnt you say, now we can all go away and train more effectively now that we know about yeilding and rooting i for one did not know about that since ive only a limited experiences in martial arts i never said i had any credentials but ppl assumed i did and attacked me for asking the reason why they thought it was crap.

Most of ppl denied me that mutual respect which i gave to them by ask why and reading what they had to say (it was crap) and asked again why and never getting a straight answer, being martial artists we should have disiplined minds, i.e. manners, mutual respect is always given, after that respect is given and taken away accordingly. Being in a community of martial artists we should be mindful of what we say no matter how much experience one might have.

[lkfmdc]

Let's refresh your memory...

When you asked for concrete explanations, I posted the following:

- "fundamental Chinese martial art fighting theory, exploit leaks and seal your own. Totally absent in the fight

They have no control over their techniques. They throw and do not recover. They throw and open themselves up. The bloddy nose in question is the most obvious example. Chan uses incorrect footwork for "kahp choih" (I do Lama Pai, I can quite correctly dissect his technique) which opens him up to the straight punch, which sadly, isn't much of a jab and has no "jing" or power, quite obviously so. ie, failure to fully exploit that leak..

The fact that the "punches" knock each one around, they hop, they spin, etc, shows their lack of defense and their lack of rooting and their lack of balance

The fact that neither capitalizes on the first technique is poor martial art as well

I could go on but the point is simple, it was a bad fight..." -

YOUR RESPONSE -

-"lkfmdc how can you tell his foot work is bad in the kup choi?? you cant even see his feet?!?!?!" -

AND

- "if you couldnt spot a severly obivous defence techniques 'employed by Mr Chan and had to be told about it what makes you think your qualifed to judge his footwork and punches??" -

So, clearly, YOU are the person who started the tone of this discussion in the direction it is going.

And you jumped in without having even the slightest clue who you are talking to. So don't send me PM's asking for us to all respect the tradition and be nice guys.

I will be blunt, my credentials in TCMA, especially Tibetan Martial Art, will top yours, no question. If you want to talk "shop", please note that the execution of the Kup Choih in question is a direct contradiction to the "8 character true essence" and "Chat Sing Bouh" which are the two most fundamental aspects of the tradition, ie, NO BASICS = IT SUCKED

NOt to mention of course, that as we are talking about FIGHTING, the fact that my gym is FAMOUS for fighting also says alot about my ability to judge this mess...

Have a nice day

[jon]

lol at this thread
Im in no way trying to advocate that this was a brilliant fight but i still saw some stuff in there which i actualy liked. I certainly disagree with the idea that this was some hidden technique laced fight but i *do* believe there is a lot to miss if you have no exposure to either style and hence do not understand what either party is trying to achive.
Merry has done an excerlent job (as im sure we all agree) of listing some of the negative points of this fight. Im going to give some reasons why *I* think this may have been the case.
Again im not trying to advocate this fight as a great showcase for cma but i do think its a very misunderstood piece of history.

" Fighters were knocked off balance and frequently. What this means is no experience in yielding or rooting. Watch a boxing match. Opponents are VERY infrequently knocked off balance when you compare shots that knock them off balance with shots that land and don't. Don't tell me I "don't understand." Being off balance is bad whether you are boxing or playing soccer. It's fundamental to forceful, useful movements."

* I have to disagree with you on boxing, ive frequently seen boxers knocked off balance or out of position its all part of the game. I also personaly think that a lot of the unbalancing was the result of the practioners both trying to gain the centre. I guess what im hinting at is that the fighters where taking each others balance rather than just falling about the ring.

"2. The fighters were frequently thrown off balance by their own movements. What this means is--no experience in yielding or rooting AND bad footwork. It also has something to do with...."
* Have to agree with you here, i noticed this a lot myself. However i guess some of this may be attributed to simple nerves. This is no great excuse its simply a by product of the situation. Ive said before i believe this was an extraordinary circumstance. Still one thing that bugged me was the way both fighters did not seem terribly relaxed. For a Tai Chi exponent the Wu style player was tence as can be. My sifus father saw this fight live and came away with (according to my sifu)"to nervous and too hard". Im inclined to agree with the fact the fighters where throwing themselfs off balance but i also think its a little harsh to be so judgemental about nerves. Pleanty of people in the early UFC's we now hail as hero's of full contact where throwing themselfs off balance as well. Tell me Tank Abbot has good root when he gets charged up - he litteraly runs accross the flaw with his arms outstreched?

"3. Rotational Movements were too large. I do not mean that twisting existed and it shouldn't have, or that rotational movements existed and that that concept is bad. What I mean is that the movements discribed a path that was too long about the axes. A large rotation is a slow rotation. A slow rotation has NO impact. Every rotational movement in a combat art/sport is small. And the better you get, the smaller those movements become, to a biomechanical limit. When wrestlers first learn to hip throw, they make a big slow clumsy step around and throw the partner. As they improve they make a very small foot change that is as clean as a pirouette called a backstep that allows them to move into the throw much more quickly. Another example is a boxer's hook. Everybody who starts learning this punch almost invariably throws a looper like a half-drunk frat boy. As you get better, the movement becomes tighter and tighter until it becomes sharp and has pop."
* Brilliant observation, especialy comming from a non cma practioner. I wont disagree here at all, still i think you may be mistaking the WC practioners power generation. There power is whipped and relies on the arms being outstreched as opposed to compacted. I often like to think of WC punches as similar to swing a sledge hammer (being your arm) which you power by moving your waist and sholder. I wont even bother to discuss the Wu stylist as nearest i could tell he basicaly used linear force except for right at the end when he attempted (rather poorly) to use a whipping strike on the WC exponents bridge. This same rather lame looking strike also actualy ended the fight. Here is where things get weird, no matter how sad that fight *looks* it had a profound effect on the people involved. The WC exponents arm was partialy paralazed ( you can see him swap sides after the impact and keep his arm back ) and the Wu style exponent ive also heard suffered from some minor internal damage due to not being able to fully disolve the power of his opponents strikes. Both fighters where fine in the end but either way that fight injured both of them and people where getting mighty freaked out from all the blood. The fight was stopped after only two rounds, you have to ask WHY??? Sure they broke the rules about kicking but should this really warrent a total stop? Me thinks there was much more to this than meets the eye.

"Pushed punches and kickes. Punches and kicks were pushed rather than fired and returned. The difference between pushing and striking a heavy bag is obvious. A pushed punch or kick makes the bag swing. A properly thrown punch or kick causes it to fold over. Don't tell me "internal/external." You want to hurt the other guy, not push him around. Maybe if you're doing some esoteric internal organ thing I've never seen, but these guys were just punching and kicking (sort of) Pushing does not hurt the other guy, leaves you open for too long, and has a tendency to overbalance causing you to make BAD corrective actions, like sticking your head out to over compensate for poor body structure."
* Honestly didnt see this much, i saw maybe a tiny bit of this but i cant really see why your picking on this point. The WC exponent was pretty clearly hitting hard and the Wu style exponent was mainly using small frame jabs and jerking blocks. I honestly did not see much pushing.

"5. Flustered when actually kind of hit by something that almost had enough pop to do something maybe. Inexperience shows."
* This i honestly disagree with, to me both fighters could be seen taking and absorbing solid blows. One of the first things that struck me was how much abuse these guys seem to be able to withhold. A typical expamle is when the Wu exponent is punched in the side of the head and go's with the blow ( he actualy almost falls out of the ring) this may have been excessive and opened him up way to much for a real encounter but he either way he manages to take that punch and defuse it without skipping a beat. Im no great martial artist but ive been hit by friday and i know what these guys are capable of delivering. In my humblest anyone who can take that many shots and still remain on there feet is doing something right.

"This can all be summed up: Those of us who have actually fought and watched real fighters fight saw this and said "The biomechanics here were all wrong.""
* I have done both pleanty of times, my personal observation of the same thing. 'Body mechancis where imperfect, not altogether wrong'.

"I don't care what style you do, you can't ignore that we're all built basically the same, so offbalance movement comes from IMPROPER movement, regardless what label you attach."
* hmmm, true but there are *many* ways to develop power, no one is the 'right' way. Is circular force any more powerfull or useful than linear? Off balance fair enough, however i cant help but think just becouse you can replicate one form of power does not make you fit to understand fully the inner workings of something compleatly different.
Boxing power is quite different to Xing Yi even if the shape of the techniques may look quite similar (in some cases).
So yeah i agree that a lack of balance produses poor power but i dont agree that all movement has to be uniform accross the board for the human body to develop good power.

"Bottom line was it was inexperience that made both these guys suck. Maybe they're great teachers. But they're Z class fighters. That's not anything to be ashamed of. I'm not knocking them. I'm knocking the people that think something mystical and esoteric is going on because they're masters, or that "it's SUPPOSED to look like this," because they're brainwashed."
* Agree they lacked real fighting experience, disagree with you labeling others based on your personal ideals. I dont pretend to understand a high level (and excedingly boring) BJJ match where both exponents simply lay on each other for obsence amounts of time. I also think its a little rough to try and second guess these guys *too* much. On the flip side i also think its *highly* improper to try to elevate the match in question to some kind of lofty place far from the reaches of any type of rational thinking. After all its just a charity match, not something to get too worked up over.


"If you find anything worthy of note in this fight other than:
1. At least they had the balls to step up.
And
2. Here's how NOT to look,
You need a reality check."
* Honestly Merry you dont need this comment, it discourages others from taking up debate and potentialy learning something. You also should encourage people of differing viewpoins to put forward there case so that you personaly can further research your viewpoint.


Again im not trying to say this fight was particualy grand (never have) however i do get a little mystified at quite why it produses such strong reactions. Its almost as though people are trying to justify there own practice by the actions of others.

Ive said this before in this same thread but we all need to stop looking at this fight like its some great showcase. Its nothing but a stupid altercation with fudgy rules that go's quickly haywire. Hardly worth judging a whole nations fighting ability over.

[jon]

Just to prove i can:
Here are some of the many negative *and* postive things i saw.

Negative:
1 No clinch game, total lack of elbows knees or leg trapping even when it clearly would have been advantages.
2 Excedingly bad nerves, both fighters where tence as heck and there blows where suffering as a result.
3 No finishing, both fighters where on occasion in a postion to close and finish and yet seemed reluctant to actualy do the job at hand.
4 Clearly both fighters where uneducated in each others styles, the WC guy kept getting sucked into the TC exponents better use of close range and the TC guy kept falling for the WC exponents baits.
5 Both fighters had obviously *not* trained in (or been informed of) the format that was to be used for the competion. They both seemed confused as to the rules and neither made any attepet to exploit them which is usualy the trademark of any competant athleate in any sport. The old acconym "you must first know the rules in order to break them" seemed way to real in this encounter.

The decent:
1 Control of distance, both fighters seem to have a prefered range and both do there best to expoit this.
2 Conditioning, for better or worse they both take some nasty punishment.
3 Some brilliant slipping and defusing, there are a *lot* of strikes thrown in that match yet only a few land with any good impact. I prefer to think most of us can hit a static target with good force so this leads me to believe that they where at least making themselves hard to hit.
4 Some guy at the start who didnt even actualy fight did a great demo of Yang style Tai Chi
5 They made a lot of money for a good cause
6 What is clearly an old man takes on a much younger one with some good success. Maybe youth aint all its cracked up to be.
7 Wu exponent lands some mean lead jabs and often when his opponent is not only mid movment but actualy moving into the force of the jab.
8 WC exponent has quite good footwork (being also a trained wester boxer) and does a lot of circling and slipping in and out.
9 The fight did *not* go to the ground, must have been one of the elusive 10%
10 I have something to write about when ive had too many beers at 2.30am and its fifty years after the fact.

Tell im lame becouse i half enjoyed this fight, heck maybe im just morbid. Still ive seen better and ive certainly seen worse.
Im also suspect of that footage its p!ss poor quality and obviously edited highly.

Ok now im gonna duck and cover while everyone tells me my opinion is invalid and im just another brainless follower - with a lot of bruises.

[Merryprankster]

Jon,

I agree that boxers are frequently knocked out of position. RARELY are they knocked off balance to such an extent that they look like they're about to fall off a balance beam. Plus, if you read what I wrote, the number of punches that land and do damage vs. the number that actually manage to knock them off balance was what I was comparing. A small percentage of punches thrown actually physically knock the fighters off balance or twist them around at odd angles. Of these, they infrequently send opponents hopping about. On the other hand, I saw what I consider to be a great deal of awkward recovering movements from both of these masters.

I believe you are decidedly incorrect about them being off-balance because of balance stealing. I believe you are attributing more skill than was being shown. I wrestled for several years, have a smattering of Judo and a decent amount of BJJ under my belt, and boxed for just long enough to get myself hurt if I ever actually try and use it . In any event, while I do not necessarily pride myself as an expert on punching and kicking, I'm pretty sure I understand balance breaking well enough to identify it. What I saw, wasn't it. Even when I had no Judo experience, I could understand the mechanics. When I look at a Shuai Chiao vid, I can understand the mechanics. When I watch this clip, the only balance stealing going on is when they trip over their own feet.

Tank is a straw man argument. You use him as a counter example to demonstrate that MMA legends aren't necessarily any more aware of footwork or yielding, etc, than our two masters, and you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. However, that's not really the issue, is it? Tank is a legend because he is an entertaining monster of a puncher with a big mouth. He's funny and fun to watch. Minotauro or Couture on the other hand, are legends because of their fight savvy and technical skills. They have excellent skills and wow you with their ability to USE WHAT THEY PRACTICE in a fight. These two masters didn't. That's the crux of the issue. So while I agree that some MMA legends aren't much in the way of technique, it's not really relevant to the conversation.

Re: my argument about the body being built the way it's built, so it can't all look that different. You sort of made my case for me. You pointed out that I had a great insight for a non-cma guy (a bit snotty in my mind, but I reciprocated with my catty remark at the end about needing a reality check--we'll call it even with no harm done). It wasn't an insight that any other competant artist couldn't have made regardless of style practiced. Why? Because the body is limited in function. That doesn't mean that certain things won't have their own flavor or be used in different, creative ways. It DOES mean, however, that certain fundamentals of movement must be maintained across the board. When these fundamentals are violated, the result is a sloppy mess.

As a side note, I don't think I misunderstood the WC power generation. An over hand right, looks VERY much like that. The arm is loose, and the fist hammers into the target. So it was pretty clear what was going on. However, I happen to believe it wasn't done well. It, along with the kicks (which were just bad) were what I meant by pushing. The punches and kicks were PUSHED out there to meet the target, not just thrown nice and loose with hands like clubs at the end of it.

The after fight effects you describe can be attributed to a simple lack of conditioning. You can chop even a conditioned man down with thai leg kicks. Doing it to an unconditioned person is like child's play. When I say conditioning, I'm just talking about "getting used to what this stuff feels like, and grinding through it." The first time I got slammed in wrestling, it was "Whuff," and it took the fight out of me. After that, it was de rigeur and it took a spectacular slam (like the one that popped my collarbone out of place), to phase me. Rather than me believing something wierd was going on, I chalk it up to them not knowing what a full contact whacking about is like and being surprised.

We will agree to disagree on the diffusion and evasion aspect. You saw a guy diffuse a good shot by almost falling out of the ring, for instance, where as I saw a guy with bad balance take an ok shot and nearly fall. A GOOD shot would have knocked him flat with that awful balance, and not just teeter him about.

At the end of it all, I saw a fight between two novices, not two masters. And I use novice in the sense of "new to full contact," because they obviously were. It's not a knock on them, again. They stepped up, and were inexperienced. It's just another example of why you need full contact sparring on a regular and frequent basis to really understand what you do.

[red5angel]

This fight always cracks me up when I see it. I can't belive anyone calls these guys masters.

Can anyone here show me just one or two techniques in either system pulld off, not flawlessly, but even well? I saw one or two interesting shots, as some have already pointed out but these guys really look like they are flailing at each other. It reminds me of that video floating around with those two bikers flailing at each other, what's the difference?
I am not saying it has to look hollywood perfect but if you are a master you better dang well be representing whatever it is you are a master of.
I get so sick of this crap in CMA. A bunch of ameteurs claiming to be something they are not. I have met one guy, ONE that I believe I could not take, and you see in every move he makes, the art he studies. You see him in action you know what it is he is good at.
So what is the problem with all these other guys, about 99% of them, who can't put up?
It is especially glaring in CMA because these guys want to tout nigh mystical abilities, and knowledge so deep only a few know it, yet when it is time, they have almost nothing to show for it!

[truewrestler]

Didn't Bruce Lee advocate sports (boxing, judo, etc) as a good way to perfect timing and technique???

Martial Arts(fighting/self-defense) is one of the few things in the world that I can think of where people try to get good, or think they are good, without ever trying it. A pianist becomes good by play for hundreds of hours on a piano, not by waiving their fingers in the air. Would you want a surgeon, that has only read about surgery, to operate on you? Sure a rifleman in the military doesn't fire real bullets at real people for training, but they come as close as possible to the real thing.

Why do people feel differently about Martial Arts??

[red5angel]

truewrestler, good points. I have walked into quite a few CMA schools and kwoons that do not do a whole lot of sparring, much less full contact sparring yet these guys think they have attained a level of ability where it doesn't matter because they will be able to handle whatever comes

[Walter Joyce]

Anyone who doesn't include sparring/non-co-operative methods in their training is NOT training in a Martial Art.

BTW, to me wrestling and boxing are both martial arts, and probably two of the most realistic.

FWIW

[jon]

Merry
As always quality rebutals, i have to be carefull here becouse i agree with much more than i disagree with amoungst your arguements. Im partialy only doing this for the sake of it and also partly becouse im having fun just analysing the fight.

"Plus, if you read what I wrote, the number of punches that land and do damage vs. the number that actually manage to knock them off balance was what I was comparing."
* I personaly saw a lot of this as being due to the constant checking and blocking. I saw the Wu style guy for example using a lot of jerking blocks and actualy pulling his opponent off balance - then hitting him when he was not grounded.

"On the other hand, I saw what I consider to be a great deal of awkward recovering movements from both of these masters"
* I gotta admit, i should have been much more clear on this, there dodging may have been mildly effective in the matter at hand but as you point out yourself it was still poorly executed and often left them very open to follow ups (which still no one used). Still then again some of the basic slipping was not awefull. The wu stylist in particular seems pretty good at slipping leads and the returning fire with his own. Not exactly a good boxers standard but its still there.

"I believe you are decidedly incorrect about them being off-balance because of balance stealing."
* Yikes ive never been told im 'decidedly incorrect' before hehe i feel kinda dirty
Seriously though I think here we are looking at two different things. You are looking for examples of people actively jostling for the centre ala a wrestling match or even a Tai Chi push hands comp. What I meant within in this fight (of the unbalancing variety) is more to do with the way that blocks are executed. Both fighters attempt to use each others bridges to whip there opponents into there strikes. This can often be seen by one exponent pulling down sharply on there opponents arm and forcing the recovery or attempting to jam. Sadly this was often one of the aspects of the fight which suffered badly from nerves and as such the fighters useing there arms instead of there bodys to do the dropping. This has the effect of making the practioners look like there trying to use there arms like hammers to hit the bridge - not a great look.

"Tank is a straw man argument."
* given...
However my point here is partialy also that you get good at what you train. Early NHB was nothing to what it is today, why are we all so supprised that this fight in particular was poor? Especialy when weighing in all the circumstances. Maybe these guys 'could' have been really good given a few matches to practice the rules - who knows?

"You sort of made my case for me. You pointed out that I had a great insight for a non-cma guy (a bit snotty in my mind, but I reciprocated with my catty remark at the end about needing a reality check--we'll call it even with no harm done)."
* Appologys... I did not mean that the way it came out. When i said 'for a non cma practioner' i did *not* mean that only cma can understand things such as rotational power or rooting. The reason i said this was simply you where not a chinese martial artist yet where doing an exceptionaly good job and picking up on the body mechanics of two people who are. Human movement is just that, still doesnt mean i cant give credit where its due. I honestly thought it was a great observation comming from a non chinese stylist - there was no disrespect intended.

"It wasn't an insight that any other competant artist couldn't have made regardless of style practiced."
* Never said it was, still i prefer to call a spade a spade and this thread already has heated emotions. I was hoping to keep our discussion as respectfull as possible. I was maybe stroking your ego but it was in the hope of further good will.

"Because the body is limited in function."
* Disagree, the human body is capable of extraoridinary diversity. Some things may be similar or even uniform but that does not detract from the unique aspects. Pointless to debate but never the less.

"That doesn't mean that certain things won't have their own flavor or be used in different, creative ways. It DOES mean, however, that certain fundamentals of movement must be maintained across the board. When these fundamentals are violated, the result is a sloppy mess."
* Very tricky comment, this is what i was hinting at above.
The body is different and minds are different. What works ammazingly for some may be next to useless for others. How is it that whole countrys fighting technqiues are coloured by the indiginous populations builds? There are many different ways even to deliver a strait linear strike, look at the difference between Bajiquan and silat.
I can concede there are some fundamentals and i can also concede that balance should be one of them. However im also not willing to judge fully what i dont understand. I dont practice either Wu style or WC (though ive somehow managed to be hit by both on seperate occasions) so im simply not that keen on casting aspersions on there choosen methods of power generation.

"As a side note, I don't think I misunderstood the WC power generation. An over hand right, looks VERY much like that. The arm is loose, and the fist hammers into the target. So it was pretty clear what was going on. However, I happen to believe it wasn't done well. It, along with the kicks (which were just bad) were what I meant by pushing. The punches and kicks were PUSHED out there to meet the target, not just thrown nice and loose with hands like clubs at the end of it."
* Ok i think i have got what you mean here, I gotta say now i understand your comments better ill also agree with this as well. The wu exponent in particular seemed to be actualy reaching with his punches instead of driving them. I also think this was the reason that the Wu exponent kept throwing 'himself' off balance You can also notice both partys are ammazingly unprepared for misses. Each time one of them hits nothing but air they almost launch themselfs after the punch. Clear nerves in my humblest.

"The after fight effects you describe can be attributed to a simple lack of conditioning."
* To be honest i doubt it, still this is certainly a possibility.

"We will agree to disagree on the diffusion and evasion aspect. You saw a guy diffuse a good shot by almost falling out of the ring, for instance, where as I saw a guy with bad balance take an ok shot and nearly fall."
* Ok ill tell you what i saw i liked exactly.
During this exchange the WC exponent basicaly whips the Wu stylist into a hook punch. The wu stylist knowing he has been already off balanced go's 'with' his opponents whip and allows himself to be actively drawn into the strike. At the last moment he then drives his head and body right forward making the strike contact the side of his head with redused impact instead of his face with the full brunt. He then ducks down and allows the blow to keep moving him in the same direction. I will say it looked odd and even imcompetant and was certainly not a good move in terms of defence (left him open). However the fact remains he took that punch and didnt come out badly at all - even if he did have a brief meeting with the ropes(what boxer hasnt?).

"At the end of it all, I saw a fight between two novices, not two masters. And I use novice in the sense of "new to full contact," because they obviously were. It's not a knock on them, again. They stepped up, and were inexperienced. It's just another example of why you need full contact sparring on a regular and frequent basis to really understand what you do."
* Can understand that compleatly, also agree with you on the lack of experience issue.
However this has also been my point all along, why do people make such a big deal of this fight? People seem to come at it from such extreame angles - it was the worst fight ever or conversly it was the battle of the masters. I just dont get why everyone makes it out to be such a big deal.

One thing ive heard but am not dead sure on: Still its kind of interesting anyway.
The guy who was doing the demo of Yang style was student of Yang Chen Fu - he was so unimpressed with the fight he visted the Wu stylist prior to the fight and berated him.
The WC practioner from what ive heard was actualy a relatively new up and comming student - NOT a master (at the time of the fight, he certainly went on to become a master however). He was picked becouse there was some arguement with the Wu exponents school and they wished to have him beaten by a junior level student and not one of there seniors. They thought this would bring them better face. In the end it had the opposite effect becouse being a new student he didnt really have a good handle on his basics and got his WC confused with his boxing turning his execution into a confused mish mash.
I cant confirm this is just what ive heard, this fight is not exactly known for its brilliance amoungst cma circles. My sifus father was certainly unimpressed and his main sparring partner was a Wu stylist who was also pretty upset at the event.

Anyway thanks for your responce and good value insights.
Jon

[jon]

truewrestler

How many in the army have ever shot at a live target? Should they be protecting your country?
How many in the paratroopers have done live drops into enemy occupied territory under artilary fire? Should they bother to attempt it if they have to scramble?
How many pilots have been forced to make a water landing with an engine on fire? Should they still be allowed to fly?
Unfortunately in this world some things simply cant be proparly tested. Surprisingly trying to kill people is one of them.