Wu Gong Yee vs. Chan Hak Fu

[lkfmdc]

The fact the US is a civilized country with the rule of law prevents some of the methods other military does, for example, Russian special forces in teh past were locked in a room with Gulag inmates. The Gulag inmate was told he could go free if he could kill the soldier. NO, I am not making that up. NO US military would be allowed to do such things. HOwever, you do realize that they do excercises with LIVE AMMUNITION don't you?

[truewrestler]

jon,

Everything you just said proved my point. These people have trained as close as possible to the circumstances they will encounter. Everything after that makes them better and better until they are "veterans".

This does simply not correlate to "Martial Arts". "Martial Artists" dismiss this as SPORT that will limit or taint their deadly abilities.

"Unfortunately in this world some things simply cant be proparly tested. Surprisingly trying to kill people is one of them."

That is EXACTLY the point of sparring and competition. You can become great at techniques that can be trained. Why wonder if you can break someone's neck or poke them to death when you know for certain that you can choke them unconcious, knock them out or apply a crippling lock because you have done it countless times in sparring and competition against resisting opponents that have trained to defend these attacks.

[Merryprankster]

Jon--no offense was taken, and I hope none given. Thanks for your time! I apologize if anything was misconstrued--I can be direct and this sometimes comes across wrong on the internet.

I'll watch the vid again some time and see if I can spot what you are talking about.

[jon]

truewrestler

With all due respect i think you have my arguement a little backwards. Ill happily accept responsiblity as the internet is a imperfect medium for communication and im personaly not exactly famous for being able to get my point accross.

However i have *no* arguement with you that sparring and live work with resisting opponents is vital to developing proper preasure proof skill. What i was trying to get at is that some aspects of this sort of skill simply cant be constantly drilled. It does not however mean it should not be trained.
Ill take my point about the pilots as example.
Its of course reasonable to assume your pilot has good flying time logged and some good emergency training. Its unreasonable to expect him\her to have actualy been *in* an emergency situation. Occasionaly you have to just do the best you can with commen sence and logic and then hope to god it all pans out that way in the real world.

Im in no way trying to imply your wrong about many so called 'masters' of 'fighting' being nothing more than purveyours of wishfull thinking. What im trying to get at is that some aspects of training will always remain 'practice only' becouse that is the very nature of what you train.


lkfmdc
"HOwever, you do realize that they do excercises with LIVE AMMUNITION don't you?"
* Please calm down, if ive said something which has upset you then please state it and ill do my best to reciprocate. Otherwise there is a definate tone of anger to your post and your question makes *very* little sence given the context of my post.
Does live ammo mean they shoot at live targets?
Does live ammo mean they get practice while being shot *at*?
Does live ammo mean they are still accurate when there best friend is being turned into swiss cheese right infront of them?

The idea of forcing soliders to have life or death battles 'before' they go *into* battle against a real enemy is ludicrous for one simple reason. Any soldier who 'could' have made an enemy kill (or even been used as a human shield for his peers) but was instead killed during training is a darn waste of time, money and resourses.

[Merryprankster]

Jon,

I think the problem with all this can be summed up:

These fellows were supposed to be masters. How is it that one can be a master and not able to use the skills they supposedly practice.

I find their fight completely excusable for novices full contact sparring for the first few times, but inexplicable if the term "master," is going to be thrown about.

As Truewrestler has pointed out, MA's are the only arena in life you can be considered an expert by an awful lot of people and never ONCE have demonstrated an ability to actually DO what you practice. Nobody is asking for life and death drama, or that a master be the very best fighter, but the ability to punch kick, throw against another guy trying to do the same should be a necessary qualification. By the time you're teaching or termed master, you certainly should be able to show you've got the goods--again, not asking for the best of the best, but some obvious experience.

[fiercest tiger]

LOL, dude you and your long posts!!

The fight wasnt very advanced fighting and showed that they did have the b@lls to enter, but was sloppy all the same. I liked the 1st punch by the taiji guy to the gob, but liked the kick to the kegs by the crane sifu.

I would have taken them both on.......



FT

[jon]

Merryprankster
To be short and sweet i agree entirely. Ive also never claimed either of these fighters to be 'masters', although i believe the WC exponent went on to become one. The term is subjective and depends on the person using it. Personaly i did not see what i like to term 'mastery' and as such (to me) there simply two guys going the tonk.

fiercest tiger
lol yeah i know im sucker, i seem to always end up in these debates and half the time i dont even draw a clear line at what im trying to argue. I think part of the problem here is my personal view is that the fight wasnt 'horrible' but was still pretty darn shocking. Not an easy position to argue effectively, i probarly should have kept my mouth shut. Still im always keen to learn and learning is usualy done though adversity.

"I would have taken them both on....... "
* lol you would have won within seconds

[lkfmdc]

my point was simple, your statement was incorrect, Training with live ammunition means exactly that, real bullets are flying over your head during the exercises... as for someone dying, YES, it happens, and as I said, the statement about Soviet forces is true and well documented

you can not believe it if you wish, but it's true

[jon]

lkfmdc

"my point was simple"
* No it wasnt, you asked a question which bared no relevence to my original argument and gave out a story which sounded more like a fairy tale.

"your statement was incorrect"
* Pray tell, what about my statement was 'incorrect'?

"Training with live ammunition means exactly that, real bullets are flying over your head during the exercises..."
* No it does not, that would be training under live fire. A totaly different thing and something which is also not done in this day and age. What you discribe is simply shooting with real bullets. Surprisingly blanks dont leave marks in targets so i guess that makes all the guys down my local target gun club cold killers as well becouse they use 'live' ammunition?

"as for someone dying, YES, it happens,"
* Ding Dong - my point was that it would be a... lets see what i wrote up there...."a darn waste of time, money and resourses." The glaringly obvious point being that having people killed during training is something to be avoided like the plague.

"the statement about Soviet forces is true and well documented"
* I never tried to imply it wasnt, my point was its a stupid practice. Who cares if you can beat up an undernourished scared and already physicaly and mentaly comprimised prisoner, the time spent training that would have been much better spent elsewhere. If this was an effective practice lets ask a little question like why its not used elsewhere? Do the soviet military still use this practice?

[fiercest tiger]

All this over a silly fight?!

jon,

I would have been the guy that got smacked in the mouth......lol

when we going to have another yum cha?

you should be called fiercest tiger bro.....lol mini fiercest hahahaha

take care
FT

[jon]

fiercest tiger

lol yeah i need to stop taking such things so seriously, especialy when im the idiot who stated that people get too worked up about this fight in the first place Young dumb and full of errrrm chi?

Yum Cha sounds like a great idea, im gonna hopefully be taking some time off this month and we are doing heaps over Chinese new years so should have a bit more free time.
Ill get in contact with you and we can figure something out anyway.


all the best (crawling back into my private cave to yell at my reflection in the rock pool)
Jon

[fiercest tiger]

sure no probs, ykm will be demoing in chinatown at the end of the month with lion dancing and some kung fu demos. I'll be getting my guys to demo , i wont be doing demos this year i have a shoulder injury.

anyway catch up soon and get some of the other guys together like last time it was good.

FT GARRY

[friday]

hey jon

i should be going next thursday nite to check out the BJJ class at Jin Wu Kwoon i think its about 7:30pm. i think its a bit expensive to go to $15 per class but i just want to go look sweaty dog mite be there u want to come and check it out with me?

as for yum cha!!!!! aren't i invited???

FT
wheres the closest station for me to turn up to near your kwoon?
i'm really bad at defending kicks so i think i need to work that a bit.

again yum cha is good let me know when and where guys



friday
ps btw i saw your reply on the how u see kfo members thread. batman???? hahaha anyway i think your rite you look more like a spiderman.

[fiercest tiger]

merrylands station, get there around 3pm so we can do some stuff and chat and if you like you can join in the night class etc?

call me the day before incase plans change for both you and i!

FT

[wiz cool c]

Now can every one who read this thread please go buy my cd. www.cdnow.com {search by artist} Wiz Cool C.