Rethinking U.S. international policy.

[Laughing Cow]

Hmm.

Wonder why the US-Guys always need to dredge up old/ancient History to justify their points.

Contrary to your beliefsw the rest of the world has accepted the old colonianism and has moved on. Good and bad things happened there.
Colonianism was the reason why the british Empire collapsed and many other empires collapsed.

Most of the World ahs also moved on from WW II and it has become as much History as the 30 or 100yr war.

On the other hand the US is the result of the very same colonaism that they so happily bash.

It is in the past forget and concentrate on teh current issues like the Human rights violations done in afghanistan by the current regime and the US forces. and similar.

During War times all standard rules and laws are suspended, and EVERYBODY will do bad and gasthly things. Some of their own will others beause they are ordered by their leaders/commanders.
In many cases a War CANNOT be won, unless you are willing to do those things.

Some WW II facts:
Germany killed 11 mill. People NOt 6. mill Jews.
Turkey killed 9 mill Jews.
US firebombing in Japan was a Human rights crime.
The British invented the concentration camp.
The Atom bombing of Japan was a warning to Germany, as the US had plans to bomb BOTH Europe and Japan.
The US took contol of Okinawa, imprisoned their People and ruined their economy by only taking and NOT giving back.
In case someone wants to know how the Russians treated some Prisoners in their concentration camp pm me and I will relate waht happened to Family of mine in them.

This is ALL in the past and naturally some bad feelings still exist. Time to move on and make sure that those bad feelings are eradicated.

Because those are what causes Terrorism, War and Strife.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Xebsball


Yeah we know, son
Why do you think we have so many jokes about Portuguese people here?

More anecdoteal evidence along the lines of what I was saying

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

Contrary to your beliefsw the rest of the world has accepted the old colonianism and has moved on.

Thats also true. Its unwise to blame it on them.
But the joking carries on, cos its tradition

As for the colonies there were two types: of exploration and of populating (that is, from me transtalating from my language, might sound strange).
USA was a populating colony for the British. Brazil was a exploration colony to Portugal.
Exploration is the one that you take stuff and leave. The other is the one that you settle people in and stuff, sorta. Actually theres a more decent explanation of the difference but i wont even bother to display it now, mostly cos i dont care.

Yeah, and the debil told me all of you that post non kung fu posts are going to hell.

[yuanfen]

KC Elbows sez:Israel was then dependent on them, and then on us. How do you think they got so well armed so fast?
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In the early days the Brits played a double game with the Jews and the Arabs. Yuanfen
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KC:Iraq is not, much to the chagrin of the US, so fractious, even if they are run by a tyrant
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More complicated than that. We ignored the Kurds when they could have used atleast humantiarian aid. There is a large Shia population in Iraq. But we tilted towards Iraq when Iraq was a
counterbalancing point for us aginst Iran. We gave Iran the startup capacity for many of the weapons we now seek to destroy.
yuanfen
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rogue sez:The US is like the good kid with drunken parents. He cleans up their messes,
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Not so simple. We have our "interests" and some of the roots are deep. Read Hamilton..."the business of government is indeed business" Yuanfen
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MP sez:Right now, we use the U.S. military. Wrong tool. They kill things. That's their primary job--to blow stuff up. They don't constantly train to build a nation after wiping it out.
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Right on the limts of the military. But people like George Marshall (for Europe) and Macarthur(for Japan) are gone and their heirs are not in the same league. Besides we, the Brits, the Frogs, the
Ruskies and even the land of the Nobel prize are big time arms merchants. the arms pollution has escalated sticksand stones quarrels to big time. Yuanfen
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Father Dog sez:Some of the problems around the world have been caused by our former policy of supporting anyone who was anti-communism, even if they were horrible tyrants.
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Not so simple: we still have bad premises in thinking. We look for the remnants of the Taliban and the al Qaeda and yet support a
military dictatorship (Musharraf holds the real power in spite of some symbolic/cosmetic changes). Pakistan was and still is a major fountainhead for harboring and training terrorists--- rounding up the "usual suspects"(casablanca) ever so often in order to please us sufficiently so we can give them more arms and money. Elements of the Intersevice Intelligence of Pakistan
still protects people dangerous to US interests and for peace in the region.... while we turn our attention on Iraq,. Bush sr's calculation was to still leave Saddam alive asa a counterweight aginst Iran. Wrong premise.

Nothing startling about brit hypocrisy...while Blair joins us in declaring Iran to be part of the axis of evil his reps were selling nuclear rquipment to Iran.
PS. Arafat was foolish for not accepting the Brak plan...but the moment passed- we should/could hace been more insistent on pushing the Barak plan...now we are trapped witha shift to Sharon's confrontational methods- which contunues to create the seeds of more whirlwinds...as moderates become marginalized.

In any case cant solve these things in quick MA internet posts.
The net tends to distort and oversimplify quite complex things. Yuanfen------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by yuanfen
-----------------------------------------------------------------
rogue sez:The US is like the good kid with drunken parents. He cleans up their messes,
---------------------------------------------------------
Not so simple. We have our "interests" and some of the roots are deep. Read Hamilton..."the business of government is indeed business" Yuanfen

word

[dnc101]

Originally posted by FatherDog
When I said I was embarassed by our government, what I probably should have said was 'worried', and that's because of what I percieve as a strong push towards a police state. It's the direction of our current internal policies that really bother me, not our external ones.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He's got it! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is exactly what happens. Every time we are attacked, or some nut commits a crime, or some congress-eunuch ****s, the government wants more powers to protect us feeble citizens. More powers for government means less freedom for us. And due to the magnitude of this attrocity (9-11) they've been able to go for, and get, some broad new powers. Expanded wire tapping privilages, computer hacking privilages, new comprehensive databases, federalization of a large security force (airport security, ... . I'm more than worried- (this is for all you libs out there- are you ready?)- I'm downright paranoid!

But, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

(edit:f@rt is a swear word? I would point you to Benjamin Franklins excellent treatise on the subject, his book "F@rt Proudly", a classic in its own right!)

[KC Elbows]

To keep all of the politics together, and in keeping with the one poster commenting about being more worried about internal politics:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...migration_dc_4

They really really really do not want to talk about the numbers, apparently.

[dnc101]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Wonder why the US-Guys always need to dredge up old/ancient History to justify their points.

History gives the situation context. It should teach us lessons, learn from its' successes and failures. History is a valid supporting argument. If you don't like history, I'd suggest it is because you don't like reason. Historical facts get in the way of your feelings?

It is in the past forget and concentrate on teh current issues like the Human rights violations done in afghanistan by the current regime and the US forces. and similar.

Who was it that said "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat its' mistakes"? And I wasn't aware that we were violating any bodys human rights in Afganistan.

During War times all standard rules and laws are suspended, and EVERYBODY will do bad and gasthly things. Some of their own will others beause they are ordered by their leaders/commanders.In many cases a War CANNOT be won, unless you are willing to do those things.

We are at war. And bad things do happen. But, by and large, our wars are notable for our restraint, compassion, and sense of fair play and our magnanimous nature towards those we defeat.

US firebombing in Japan was a Human rights crime.

BS!

The Atom bombing of Japan was a warning to Germany, as the US had plans to bomb BOTH Europe and Japan.

Where do you get this stuff? Germany was already defeated, and we only had two bombs. If Japan had called our bluff, we'd have had to invade their homeland- at the cost of untold thousands of lives and human suffering.

The US took contol of Okinawa, imprisoned their People and ruined their economy by only taking and NOT giving back.

You're again talking trash. I was in Okinawa when we turned it back over to the Japanese. The Okinawans did not want to be turned back! Besides being ethnically different, they had a thriving economy and a lot more autonomy under 'US Oppression' than with Japanese integration.

This is ALL in the past and naturally some bad feelings still exist. Time to move on and make sure that those bad feelings are eradicated.Because those are what causes Terrorism, War and Strife.

Terrorism is caused by hatred. They hate us because we are the antithesis of everything they believe and are. They hate us because we are successful, they are poor and ignorant because of who and what they are. They hate us because we offer to help, and they know that if we give some small measure of freedom- literacy, the means to produce and work your way out of poverty, any small taste of freedom- their political and religious stranglehold on their people will be broken. And terrorism is encouraged by you, who blame us for all the worlds evils. With so many apologists in our midst it is no wonder they think they can strike without fear of retaliation.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

Your opinion is way over priced. I'll be nice and not bill you for mine- doubt you could afford it.

[Souljah]

BAH........just got in .....h8 catching threads this l8
gotta catch up

[Laughing Cow]

DNC101.

Maybe try take your head out of your jingositic arse and read the friggin newspapers for a chance.

The Info I gave here can be verified very easily by doing a quick internet search, or going to a Library.

As for the supposed Human rights violation speak to any Human rights group or the UN.

Human rights violation in Afghanistan was done by dropping cluster bombs which are indiscriminate and now lie undetonated on the ground. They are just as dangerous at the moment as Land mines. Which are ILLEGAL by international standard.

The info about the planned Atomic bombing in Europe came from YOUR Goverments files that were released recently.

BTW, the US is in a War that it started itself.
9/11 was a criminal/terrorist act, not an act of War or even a declaration of War.
It looks like your leaders can't tell the difference.

You are being mislead by a few people that have the power and choosen to use it for their own gain.

But keep living your little pink cushy dream that you Guys can't do wrong and didn't do wrong.

Have fun and keep dreaming.

[Merryprankster]

History gives the situation context. It should teach us lessons, learn from its' successes and failures. History is a valid supporting argument. If you don't like history, I'd suggest it is because you don't like reason. Historical facts get in the way of your feelings?

Right on. I've usually found that in the face of actual reason, the cries from folks like laughing cow get more strident and less substantive.

LC, I'd have to say that it's not "ancient history." The effects of the thoughtless behavior of the European Colonial powers are alive and well, and in many cases are more or less directly responsible for the poor state of current affairs in many places. Ask the Rhodesians. (or have they changed their name?) I can make a direct, logical link between the way mercantile colonial powers treated their colonies and drew up borders, and Africa's miserable state. Can you make a direct link that shows the U.S. CAUSED these problems?

Also, w/regards to your "currency," argument (more current stuff seems to be more important to you...) I suppose I'm supposed to assume then that Communism and human rights violations, and black market arms deals are fundamental to Chinese culture? Or should I ignore the several thousand years of context, ie, HISTORY, that you seem to deem unimportant? After all, the Cultural Revolution was more recent, so it's far more relevant, right?

LOL at you trying to counter my presentation of historical facts with your histrionics.

Why is it everytime U.S. supporters point out that hundreds of years of colonial domination without any infrastructure development was responsible for the poor conditions in many countries, U.S. bashers feel compelled to ignore that crucial connection?

Sorry guys, we can't fix ALL your problems. We'd like you to go in and do some work, but unfortunately, you're all too **** impotent to do anything about it. Sometimes you commit some troops and cash to UN efforts. We do appreciate that. It helps relieve some of the guard duty rotation and defrays the cost, to some extent, of correcting the current result of your ****-ups.

[Merryprankster]

LOL at LC trying to change the subject! Here I was, making an argument about why the conditions in some places are **** poor, and he starts talking about Afghanistan.

Ask the women in Afghanistan if they prefer life with cluster bombs or the Taliban.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Sorry guys, we can't fix ALL your problems. We'd like you to go in and do some work, but unfortunately, you're all too **** impotent to do anything about it. Sometimes you commit some troops and cash to UN efforts. We do appreciate that. It helps relieve some of the guard duty rotation and defrays the cost, to some extent, of correcting the current result of your ****-ups.

WORNG.

We don't WANT you to fix ANYTHING.
We WANT you to leave us the feck ALONE.
We dislike you because you INTERFERE in our businesses and countries.

Got the message finally.



If you got the message pass it onto your leaders.

[Laughing Cow]

Xebsball .

Agreed on the 2 types, problem is that the settlement type normally tends to kill of the native Peoples or leave the in reduced numbers.

Hottentot's in southern Africa.
"Japanese" natives when the koreans settled on the japanese isles there
Natives in the Americas
Aborigines in Australia
etc.

I see it as a lose/loose sitaution.

Natives are either left economically destroyed or nearly if not eliminated.

Either way the natives loose to the more powerful invader.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Souljah]

instead of a discussion this is just turning into another arguement.....

MP, yes there are US bashers on these forums, what do you expect? But at the same time there are probably more pro USAers so whats the big deal.....?

People are arguing about CURRENT issues.....and the US is slap bang in the middle. Dredging up the colonial times as a harsh reminder does not and would not change the fact that the US is proposing war (maybe not the citizens) on iraq.....and this has sparked up alot of feelings