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Humblewarrior- i guess your best proof would be to make sure that the sifu who is claiming it can break. No sifu will show you iron palm without showing you that they can break. You have to model their movements in the beginning anyway. I think this pretty much breaks the skepticism in my book.
Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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humblewarrior:
obviously you have a problem trusting your sifu. You are not showing him respect by asking these questions. If you cannot trust him, then you should not be studying under him, therefore find a new Sifu whose abilities you can trust and learn from him, but don,t ever disrespect your Sifu while studying under him. But you should respect all Sifus of respectable styles. There are some to be wary of.
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illusionfist,
i would like to point out that there are many schools which incorporate breaking. (lots of karate and tkd schools) and the teacher may break bricks... but that doesn't mean that he isn't doing damage to his hands.
it is known that many karate 'masters' don't do breaks in their older age due to arthritis, and damamge done from their earlier years of breaking.
how often do you see people breaking, esp with their fist, where the break relies entirely on dropping your body weight onto your fist, aligning the fist with the shoulder... (totally brute force.)
this is not good. i've even seen karate people break their hands doing breaks. (one guy hit wrong and pushed his ring and pinky knuckles halfway up to their wrist. and he still kept his game face... but that doesn't mean what he was doing was good.)
not showing pain is for some reason a big part of karate.
breaking should just be about dropping your hand, dead weight, totally relaxed, and breaking. (dropping your hand in front of you, not locking out your arm...
(i'm sure you know this already, i guess this is for those who might not.)
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There are also many fraudulent breaking methods out there. As far as being disrepectful to your sifu is concerned, I think a good sifu should repect your concerns about the safety of your own personal well-being. I also think that a good sifu should also not make you do body conditioning methods that are not safe. Hey, different students have different needs. For example, a sifu could not honestly expect someone who is elderly to do what a younger person does. Also, someone who has a physical disablility cannot be expected to do the things that a healthy person can do. I have read that a person who has a history of heart problems should not do any iron palm training. Is it really disrepectful for a personal with heart problems to refuse to do such training? Give me a break.
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what if I get some books on Chinese medicine? then I will at least have a better idea of whether or not the jow works. I think that it is better to not trust a sifu than it is to become permanently disfigured.
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there was an article in Martial arts training magazine once that told about the dangers of certain popular conditioning exercises. It said something like, "Do not blame your instructor for passing these methods down to you. Blame the tradition for passing it down to him." My feelings exactly. Overall, in most aspects of the training, any sifu knows better than me. However, I have done extensive research on many body conditioning methods, and some of the ones that are still commonly practiced today are definitely not safe. A good sifu should respect your concern about the safety of your well-being. If you do not care about your well-being, who will?
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Just about any school makes you sign a legal waiver saying that you assume the risk associated with the training. Therefore, from a legal point of view, what reason does a sifu have for caring about the safety of youe well-being?
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From what I've read, it seems as though you have some issues. And this thread has gotten totally off of the subject. What you should ask yourself are your training brothers and sisters healthy. Is your Sifu healthy. Is your Si-Gung healthy. Is this right for you. Everyone who has ever studied has had doubts about his or her instructor, but when you take it to this level. maybe you should consider researching an instructor that suits you. Gung hei faat choy.
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No offense, but I do not think that I was the one who took this thread off of the subject. What is Si-Gung? I have never heard of that term before. Also, even if the Sifu and his assistant instructor's are healthy, then how do you know that the liniment that they use for themselves is the same one that they have you use? Maybe I do ponder too much, but I would rather be safe than sorry. You really have to take into consideration that the damage that you inflict upon yourself with body conditioning methods must be removed immediately, so only a fool would be so quick as to trust just any old jow. I like to think of myself as an intellectual. I am sorry if I am offending anyone by saying this.
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What does Gung Hei fat Choy mean?
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MaFuYee- I completely understand your viewpoint and i can also understand the injuries involved with those practices. You also touched on the crucial factor that separates legit iron palm versus other breaking methods. The slight dropping of the palm is the key. Most learned iron palm practitioners can break when holding their palm at solar plexus height. There are many methods of breaking, but iron palm's practices and training is in a league of it's own.
Humblewarrior- From your posts it is clear that you really don't know what to look for in an iron palm instructor. You are very skeptical and untrusting, this is a bad thing when trying to learn valued teachings from a traditional sifu. From your statements it is also clear that you are probably not ready for iron palm training. There are many things that are supposed to be learned before you even start iron palm training. Internal workings and theory, chi gung, energy respiration techniques are all involved with pre-iron palm training.
Please don't take this personally or the wrong way. I am not trying to put you down in anyway. I just don't like the fact that people think they can just pick up iron palm by reading a book, watching a video, etc. This practice can severly hurt you if practiced wrong, that much is clear.
As for jow, jow is just not used for iron palm breaking. It is used primarily as a bruise liniment. There are different kinds of jow for certain practices. It is like the analogy that Brian Gray used. Dit Da Jow is like toothpaste. All toothpastes have different ingredients that do different things, but what makes them all the same is the fact that they clean your teeth.
As for the sifu's not looking out for you. Well that's a tricky subject. Let me say this though, when you have found the right one you will know it.
Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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Yes, Illusionfist. I know that there is a difference between dit da jow, which is for sore muscles, and iron palm liniment, which is for iron palm training, wooden dummy training, and breaking boards. No offense, but I thought that I already said that I do not any any intention of doing this kind of training without a sifu's supervision. Even once I do find a Sifu, I would prefer that he would let me put off doing any iron palm training at least for a good year or two, not only to prepare me for the training, but also so that he can prove to me that he desrves my trust. Illusionfist, I have to thank you for being the only one here to give me somewhat of a safe answer. I do not mean to offend the other guys, but, with the excepton of illusionfist, you guys kept go around and around in circles without really directly addressing my concerns. Thanks again, illusionfist. I still think that I should get some good books on chinese medicine to get a better idea of whether or not the liniment I am interested in using works.
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Mafuyee, I apologogize for including you in that. You have helped to illustrate my concerns.
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Humblewarrior :
My sifu is a perfect example about your questions. I was training under another teacher and not happy with his training methods. Seeing the strenght, power & hardness that my Sifu had and all the answers to the questions about conditioning, i decided to follow him. When you train in proper Iron Palm training including all conditioning you should feel the difference within 4-6 weeks approx. Some sooner, some later. But check out the credibility of your Sifu and Si-gung(sifu's teacher).Nothing about training is guaranteed. I have trained with many teachers to find that what I have is the best and most traditional
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Well, let's say that I get a liniment from someone who is both a sifu and a qualified herbalist. Then i would not have to rely on my particular sifu's jow, right? Don't you think that a sifu would be more likely to let me use a jow that, although not his, is from a reputable source? Don't you feel that my sifu should be concerned about my mental piece of mind? I do not mean to troll here, but I think relying totally on your own siu's judgement is really limiting yourself.
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