Anybody know about Green Dragon Kung Fu Tapes???

[MoQ]

So they have Southern Shaolin Tai Chi, linear Ba Gua etc. and Hsing-I that looks like they are trying to achieve something but aren't really sure what it is...

If they have legitimate material and teaching authority, they should stick with what they know, because evrything that they hold in their "catalog" that is not authorized is a straight up INSULT to that which they pretend to be so fully dedicated.

[chessboxer]

Hello,


Since in their ads they talk about having white lotus, which branch are these forms from? If they do have internal but not teach it for they believe in muscle, then wouldnt the forms be empty. By the way did anyone see the responses that John R. Allen and Chicoine had in the recent inside kung fu issue?

[MonkeySlap Too]

I did read it. I sent a rather long response to IKF that takes these two to task for really just being silly and taking on a victim mentality.

If they were really as great as they claim, they would prove it, just like anyone has too.

I personally doubt the worth of thier material on tape, and I am disapointed in Gene Chicoines approach to promoting the Chang Shia arts. I cannot attest to his skill, but if you ask around...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


I see monkeyslap too. What exactly is Mr Chicoine skill and background. i have read some of the past articles in Inside kung fu and havent really found a good source of info on who he trained with. By the way, may I ask what arts you practice? That is a good statement...if you have skill show it, if you work hard it will show.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I have records somewhere, but here is a summary: Gene Chicoine was a Karate guy who took on CMA rather late in life. Chang Tung Sheng beleived him when he said that he could grow Shuai Chiao into an international art. Unfortunately, While Gene Chicoine was put in charge of Chang's organization, he disregarded the input of his seniors in the art and treated his leadership of the ISCA as leadership of everybody. As a result, no one wanted to follow him and multiple organizations formed. These other organizations have done much more to further thae art, whereas from reading his magazine articles the only thing I see Gene Chicoine promoting is himself.

I have a few questions for the 'Green Dragon' schools: 1.) Why don't you (Gene Chicoine) compete as ALL Shuai Chiao groups have? 2.) If Gene Chicoine is so deadly, tell me who he beat. David Lin of Atalanta Georgia always seems to get defferential treatment from other masters because people know his fighting record. I have seen this first hand. Where are Gene Chicoine's accomplishments? Shuai Chiao is an art proven on the mat. 3.) How long did he study under master Chang? What other CMA did he practice, and from whom did he learn?

This is not meant to be antagonistic, but all I ever get is attitude out of these folks, and not a whole lot of substance. They are welcome to prove that they are superior - but they would rather hide behind titles and make proclamations.

I am an open book, Chess Boxer. I hold pretty high falutin' rank for those of you that care about rank in Shuai Chiao and the Chang Shia arts under the ACSCA. (although my comments are my own and NOT meant to represent the ACSCA) I also hold teaching certificates in Kali-Silat, Judo (from my teenage years), and have spent a lot of time with other CMA schools. There is more, but I find 'rank' stuff boring. I'll be posting my teachers when I get my website up.

Over 20 years of hard training, and a lot of practical usage.

What do you practice Chessboxer?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[chessboxer]

greetings,


Yes, I agree with your statements. If there skills are good then prove it. Sometimes you have to go a little bit further than just claims to back up what you know.


Well as far as my MA background. I started young age 7 in CMA. I started reading inside kung fu and various other mags to soak up anything martial wise. Spent my grade school years learning a mixture of nothern and southern shaolin. Near my high school years i got into wing chun. After a small break from MA, i got back into it. Been looking and researching wing chun and looking into tai chi, hsing I , ba gua. My teacher had a lot of different sifus who he learned from.

I agree with your statement about rank. I rather work hard and let that show. To me it is about knowledge and making it work. I have seen the politics in MA...and i know it will always be there. I only wish to share what has been taught to me. For instance i am now working hard to get the flexibilty i had in my younger days. I am always willing to learn and share experiences and knowledge. To me that is where it is at. If you wish to contact me further, just send me a email.

Humbly yours
Johnny

[falconer]

To answer a few of MonkeySlap's questions. Chicoine did start out as a karate guy at age 16 (1946) while part of the US Occupational forces. Upon returning to Ohio he started teaching karate and eventually started learning kung fu(early 50's, so that'd make him 20ish, not really late in life). First from Femon Ong, then various others in Taiwan and China I think. Eventually, he became Chang's disciple(1978)and studied under him and Chang's kungfu brother Grandmaster Wang. As far as his fighting ability, he actually beat David Lin in a friendly challenge. He has proven himself many times in challenges, but most people never get to hear about such things. If I recall correctly, seven challenges were made after he became ISCA president, he won them all. He still fights regularly.
As far as competition goes, Chicoine did lots of fighting in Taiwan back in the 70's and 80's. When Chang was still alive, his school did compete in tournaments. However, Chang always stressed to him the importance of not letting sport *******ize the art.

He learned Shuai Chiao, various styles of Hsing I, Tai Chi from Chang. I think he learned Lohan and Pakua from him too, but he may have learned them from someone else previously. He also learned Hsing I from GM Wang, tho Chang often would change small things that Wang had taught him.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, I stand corrected on the time frame. I am checking on the David Lin thing - was that David Lin of Atlanta or New York that Chicoine claims to have beaten?

Who did he fight in his seven challenge matches? It's okay to make claims, but what are the details?

If they are so good - why do they not compete? I do not beleive the rascism line. If they are as good as they claim the proof would be on the mat. I have not personally seen Chicoine or his students. I'd love to in the spirit of Shuai Chiao. I'd love to see another strong group prove themselves. The opportunnity is there.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I just looked at your site! You have competitors! Gene looks like a tough old bird!

I'd be happy to try and create a peaceful enviornment for competition. I'll be eMailing you.

This could be great!!

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[falconer]

David Lin from Atlanta. Its been some years, I think it happened around the same time that Lin wrecked Chicoine's car. I'm not sure about the challenges, I just remember it being mentioned in an old newsletter that I was given copies of. I know of several of his recent fights, but not any of the ones from years past. As far as the tough old bird comment goes, I think his wife put it best when she called him a grumpy old dragon. And I do stress the grumpy part.

As far as competition goes, some of the younger guys may be interested. A few guys competed a couple years back when we were demonstrating in Italy and a few may have competed in Taiwan in the past during our demonstrations there. However, shuai chiao competition has a lot more rules and restrictions today than it did when GM Chang was still overseeing matches. A lot of the guys have issues with training to fight, but then having to "dumb down" things for competition.

[This message was edited by falconer on 02-02-01 at 03:35 PM.]

[MonkeySlap Too]

I think this could be an opportunnity to build bridges.
The groups I have always played with felt similarly. I'll send over some recent rules.

This may take me a few days as I am off for a weekend of full contact stick fighting.

I have seen limited rules competitions held where the spirit of competition was actually friendly. This is what I would like to acheive if such a thing took place.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[falconer]

I personally wouldn't mind seeing more friendliness amongst us shuai chiao folk. It mostly depends on Chicoine, and he can be very set in his ways. Send me an email and let me know what you propose. I'll most likely be visiting Chicoine next weekend when I go home.

I know we still deal with Jeng Hsing Peng. He was supposed to come out for Chicoine's surprise birthday party this summer but never made it. A few guys from Taiwan made it tho. I was really hoping to meet Jeng too. I heard stories when I was growing up about him using my uncle in a demonstration and beating the snot out of him. He was my HERO!!

I know that will *never* happen with Daniel's group though. Chicoine hates him big time, long story short he basically stabbed Chicoine in the back. From what I've been told of him, his skill isn't what the magazines suggest it is. From what I've seen of three of his blackbelt students, his skill isn't what the magazines suggest.

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


It is good to see information being shared between you two Monkeyslap too and falconer. Which "Daniel" are you refering too? Is good to hear from people who have a good knowledge of Mr Chicoine skill. I take it his training in shuai chiao is more for combat than competion?


Humbly yours

[falconer]

Yes, his training was all about combat, not competition. Daniel Weng is the person I was referring to.

[chessboxer]

Hello,


Hmmm...Daniel Weng that is interesting. Falconer, I take it you have been a student for some time of Gene Chicoine? Do you primarily train in shaui chiao, or any other arts. Is his basic training based in the fundamentals of the art or does he use strength training exercises in his program. It will be interesting to read your further post. Best to you.

Humbly yours