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Thread: Kevin B- here is info on fei lung dragon style

  1. #1
    Kung Lek Guest

    Kevin B- here is info on fei lung dragon style

    hi Kevin, I have spoken with Si Fu Cameron about the Dragon style of Si Gung Kudding and here is what he has given me on the subject.

    - the style is originally Southern Dragon (there are different forms of Southern Dragon than the one that Kevin knows) and it is a short hand system on the whole. Si Fu Kudding modified the system to include some long arm and kicking techniques, as well as some chi kung. Perhaps due to the additions by Si Fu Kudding, he (Si Fu Kudding), liked to refer to it as more Northern. Si Fu Kudding was/is famous for taking an art and improving on it from a combat perspective.

    peace

    ------------------
    Kung Lek

  2. #2
    MoQ Guest
    Well, THAT sounds like hooey, but here's a more interesting one Kevin: http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chusauli...ungfumun.shtml

  3. #3
    Gwa Sow Chop Guest

    Kung Lek:
    Sorry, but that is not true.
    Richard Kuddings art had nothing to do with Southern dragon whatsoever. It is great to say that there are other southern dragon systems of traditional kung fu....so....what are they? Where are they? Just saying it, does not make it exist. By the way, it is generally accepted in the world view of tcma that when you talk of southern dragon, one means lung ying more kiew.....and the above mentioned art is not related at all, in content,concept,direction,history,mechanics or any thing else.
    The sets were reconstituted karate katas. In fact, set 3 4 and 5 were exact lines from the Hian (sp?) katas. Set 6 was a Kyokushin kata. (see Mas Oyama's book)
    Set 7.......prolly Southern five family
    Set 8.......Southern tiger
    Set 9 and 10....thats a whole other story. Glad to tell ya off line sometime.Wouldnt reall want to mess up this post with the really underhanded stuff.
    You mentioned Northern influence???? Nope. Not that anyone can recollect....other than the tornado kick that we borrowed from another local Northern school in the early 70's. You have to remember that every art has similarities...and from the outside it is easy to point them out. But similarities dont drive a style in a conceptual direction.
    By the way......where in the forms are long arm techniques???? have you seen the sets??
    Are you reporting on something you know? Have you studies the art in question?

  4. #4
    Kevin Barkman Guest
    Hi Mr. Lek,

    Thank you for taking the time to ask about this - I appreciate it!

    I agree that this aspect of the art was probably modified by Master Kudding - and of course there is no doubt as to his fighting abilitys!

    Cheers - kevin

  5. #5
    Mo Ying Guest
    Gwa Sow,

    I have followed this little banter for awhile now. I usually stay out of these banterings, but you seem to be reef with self importance. Too bad! Myself, being a one time student of Si Fu Kudding, I asked him about the Dragon system he knows. He personally advised me it is primarily a short hand Southern system and he modified it as Si Fu Cameron advised Kung Lek. As for teaching students this system, he advised that he taught Si Fu Cameron one half of the system before he had to leave Wpg and when Si Fu Cameron visited him in Calgary at his home he was able to teach him more. As for forms 9 & 10 he taught these only to Si Fu Cameron, but advised him not to teach these or Dragon to anyone else. As for form number eight, yes it is definitely Tiger. Si Fu Cameron was the only one to learn this form in Wpg. From what I understand, Si Fu Cameron taught it to your Si Fu, once he received permission from Si Fu Kudding. As far as knowledge of the systems taught by Si Fu Kudding and since Si Fu Cameron is your Si Fu's Si Hing (elder) in the art of Si Fu Kudding, it is he who would know best - too bad you are disrespectful to your Si Fu's Si Hing. As for long arm techniques, any kung fu student knows what these are - do not be so rude to your Si Fu's nephew, Kung Lek.
    Regarding Southern Dragon Kung Fu styles, there are more than what you know - you do not have all the knowledge and besides, the system that you know is very close to White Eyebrow if not a derivative of it - a system based more on Tiger rather than Dragon. You speak of other styles of southern Dragon not existing - names etc. and as the system you learned as the true Southern Dragon - how pompous of you and showing your ignorance - just take a look at one - the five animal system of Ha Say Fu -definitely Sil-lum Southern Dragon or the southern Dragon System from Malaysia called 'Opening the Mountain'.
    Si Fu Kudding modified what he learned from Hoang Nam as Si Fu Cameron stated to Kung Lek. Where Hoang Nam learned is a mystery, but Si Fu Kudding was not a person who liked to delve into the history of an art - his view was - if it worked and he liked it - he did not care. Some people like to give the impression through stating lineage and history that they are the experts, while the real experts perform and spout off a lot less - the proof is in the pudding, not in the discussion of the recipe!
    Your Si Fu did study under Si Fu Kudding for a number of years, receiveing black sash status a number of years after Kung Lek's Si Fu (Si Fu Cameron),who went on to receive has 3rd Degree (Dan) from Si Fu Kudding and was the Manitoba rep. for the Flying Dragon Institute. So, as logic dictates, who would one take the word of - you or Si Fu Cameron. From what I have ascertained, Si Fu Kudding did not trust your Si Fu and played him, as he kept pestering him for forms that he had only shown to Si Fu Cameron at that time. By the way, it is well known that your Si Fu has disrespected Si Fu Kudding's art by critisizing what he taught eg. forms 4 & 5 - perhaps he did draw some elements from Karate - afterall, he is a Black Belt in it -who cares as long as it works and work it does- combatively (Si Fu Kuddings main concern). Si Fu Kudding said that his student - Si Fu Cameron along with Si Fu Askew were his top students - ones that he says your Si Fu was envious of, as he was never able to best them in sparring.
    You had best learn to be a lot less pompous!

    [This message has been edited by Mo Ying (edited 08-21-2000).]

  6. #6
    FIRE HAWK Guest
    Mo Ying when you talk about southern dragon and opening the mountain from Malaysia are you talking about the PHOENIX EYE FIST also called CHUKA SHAOLIN there is a book called PHOENIX EYE FIST A SHAOLIN FIGHTING ART of SOUTH CHINA by authors CHEONG CHENG LEONG and DON F DRAEGER.In the book there is a form called KAI SAN Opening The Mountain this art comes from a nun named LEOW FAH SHIH KOO she taught 2 sisters named CHU MEOW ENG and CHU MEOW LUAN they taught OoH PING KWANG he taught LEE SIONG PHEOW who taught CHEONG CHENG LEONG.I seem to be confused as to what this style could be some have said that this is a version of southern mantis because of the words CHUKA wich would be a name for Chu Gar,Zhu Jia,southern mantis i know that thistyle has 17 hand forms and five weapons forms.Some have even said that this art has Pak Mei White Eyebrow and LAM YIU KWAI DRAGON STYLE in it.Is this style from the LAM YIU KWAI lineage.Do you know anthing about any of the other hand forms the names of the other hand forms. FIRE HAWK

  7. #7
    Ben Gash Guest
    Mo Ying, Hay Say Fu Hung Gar is not a dragon system, it is a five animals system, as is Hung Gar, CLF and Nan Sil Lum.
    As for Malaysian systems, while I will not question the effectiveness of said arts, if you track their lineage back, they usually become Hung Gar or Choy Li Fut after about 80 years.
    So, you asked the teacher if his system was legit, and he said yes? Of course! Why didn't we think of that? My God, I feel such a chump!
    GSC didn't ask what long arm techniques were, he asked where they were in sifu Kudding's sets.
    To be honest, I'm sure that there has been some derogatory stuff said about me at the school I used to be a black belt at since I left 5 years ago, and some of it may even have a grain of truth, but it's hardly a portrait of reality.
    I must however say, that I've never been bad mouthed by the real deal schools that I've trained at in the past.
    You talk scathingly about disrespecting your elders, but speak quite comfortably about chopping and changing your sifu's system wholesale. This seems a little inconsistent to me. Surely that's the ultimate questionning of your sifu's system?

  8. #8
    Kung Lek Guest
    Hi-

    ben, I don't think there was any reference in Mo Yings message stating that there was any modifcation to the system as taught by My Si Fu's Si Fu, Si Gung Kudding.

    My experience with Si Fu Cameron has been one of a terrific learning experience with great care and consideration taken to ensure that each of his students including myself understand on multiple levels what it is he teaches us.

    explanation of application comes with each and every move, none of the forms or any of the systems Si Fu Cameron teaches leave anything to question when a student has learned them.

    I also know that Si Fu Cameron has the utmost and highest respect for all the Masters and Teachers and what they have given him to bring him to his level of knowledge and expertise and wisdom concerning the Sil Lum Martial arts that He holds today.

    Si Fu has not modified Si Gungs system in any way and holds those teachings to this day as they were taught to him and that is to the best of my knowledge which Si Fu Cameron shares with me willingly as I am his student.

    Ha Say Fu Hong Pai is indeed the Four Lower Tigers Red Clan Fist system which is also known as Original five Animals style and contains complete sets of each of the five main animals of Sil Lum. The Dragon set of this style is a very long and complex system and I am told it is comprised of 600 or more movements which makes it a highly comprehensive study of the Dragon style as taught within all Shaolin systems.

    There are many aspects of Sil Lum Kung Fu and systems that have been distilled to single forms.
    There are many examples of this in non-sil lum chinese martial arts also, Pa Kua, Tai chi, Northern Snake and so on.

    So, even if a system contains a form, that gives that system aspects which are not found in other system. Such is the case, to the best of my knowledge with the Ha Say Fu Hong pai system.

    peace

  9. #9
    MoQ Guest
    Wow, what a bunch of crap. Mo Ying and Kung Lek are both FOS. All this "Sifu" this and "Sigung" that...yet it's all just kempo infected mumbo-jumbo with Chinese names. Karate and all sorts of non kung fu mixed in... oh and "modified" by those "qualified" ...what a bunch of sh*t.

  10. #10
    Kung Lek Guest
    Hi-

    moQ, as a politician once said: "I may not agree with or like what you have to say, but I will defend your inherent right to say it"

    You have your opinion, but in the areas being discussed you have little or no knowledge of the background or substance of what is being said.

    So to quote some one else: "Sometimes it is better to stay quiet and be thought of as a fool as opposed to speaking up and confirming it"

    peace

    ------------------
    Kung Lek

  11. #11
    MoQ Guest
    yep, words to live by Kung Lek. Think about it next time you post a footlong saying nothing...

    "You have your opinion, but in the areas being discussed you have little or no knowledge of the background or substance of what is being said."

    This is pretty obviously BS... Background? Substance? Kempo peeps modifying such and such mystery dragon style...hay say fu, fu jow pai... c'mon tiger, get a clue...

  12. #12
    LION Guest
    lets try to avoid another bamboo forest here

    peace

  13. #13
    Mo Ying Guest
    Ben G - I suggest you take a course in reading comprehension - read again - Ha Say Fu five animals contains southern dragon form and you obviously know little of the evolution of Chinese martial arts - if you trace them back many come from Sil-lum (Siu-lum), from which Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut draw their methods from,...and for long arm what was stated was in reply to ...where in the forms are long arm ... as Gwa Sow is a student of N.MC. who is a student of Si Fu Kudding, then either he has not seen the set or if he has - then he does not know what long arm techniques are. Ben I think you had better seek some meds for those immaginings you have - where in my post did I say anything about chopping up my Si Fu's art? - did not even come close to mentioning such a thing and as far as Si Fu Kudding - yes he did modify it as many Masters (once they become a master)have done in the past ie Mantis, Yang Tai Chi, Fu Jow Pai etc., etc,.etc....
    MoQ - with a person like you I do not believe in mincing words - you really need to get help!
    Firehawk - very good questions and history. From what I have seen, there is not Mantis in these forms, just mostly tiger and Dragon, but the Dragon is not from Lam's system.
    Kung Lek - your replies are polite, intelligent and pretty accurate as usual.

  14. #14
    Gwa Sow Chop Guest
    Didnt mean to start all of you wringing your hands in anguish over my reply. Simply wanted to straghten out the record.

    - the style is originally Southern Dragon
    Fiction


    (there are different forms
    of Southern Dragon than the one that Kevin knows) and it is a
    short hand system on the whole.
    Sure. But not from Hong Nam. Based on the sets 7, 8, 9 and 10.......no dragon there......sorry. Possibly 7, but as i stated before, probally five family Sil Lum. Neverthless, looking at the sets, it is very easy to discern that 7,8 are from totally differant system than 9,10.

    Si Fu Kudding modified the system
    to include some long arm
    Where????
    Same question. Do you mean the gwa/cup in #8. Pretty thin ice my friend. The answer is ....wrong.


    and kicking techniques, as well as some
    chi kung.
    Agreed.

    Perhaps due to the additions by Si Fu Kudding, he (Si Fu
    Kudding), liked to refer to it as more Northern.
    Maybe back in the 70's. It was easy to call something.....whatever. Not so easy to reconstitute something and call it something else. So...........false.
    There is NO northern in the art.(as defined by the kata)


    Si Fu Kudding was/is
    famous for taking an art and improving on it from a combat
    perspective.

    Hell of a martial artist. His legendary fighting skills are still talked about.

    Mo Ying:
    You dont really rate a polite reply....but I am trying.you see, you really dont know. You are merely a mime. But, please read on.

    I have followed this little banter for awhile now. I usually stay out
    of these banterings, but you seem to be reef with self importance.
    Does the truth wound you. Embrace it...it is invigorating. Nowhere do I proclaim my self import.....you seem to, in the way you deem yourself judge and jury. By, the way....with no facts to back it up. Just heresay.


    He personally advised me it is primarily a short hand Southern system and he modified it as Si
    Fu Cameron advised Kung Lek.
    I disagree.


    As for teaching students this
    system, he advised that he taught Si Fu Cameron one half of the
    system before he had to leave Wpg
    I disagree. Good story though.

    and when Si Fu Cameron
    visited him in Calgary at his home he was able to teach him more.

    Not the way I heard it......which story is true? Yours??? Why????
    Because you were there?? Sifu cameron is an outstanding practitioner. no doubt. But that is not the way it happened. Master Kudding did not teach only half an art while in Winnipeg. He taught to the best of his ability. Are you saying he was decietful????
    You are very disrespectful my friend. Nevertheless, you are once again....wrong.


    As for forms 9 & 10 he taught these only to Si Fu Cameron, but
    advised him not to teach these or Dragon to anyone else.
    I will not stoop too low here. The story is false. One side only. Let me just say.... that...... there are others that know the sets.


    As for
    form number eight, yes it is definitely Tiger. Si Fu Cameron was the
    only one to learn this form in Wpg. From what I understand, Si Fu
    Cameron taught it to your Si Fu, once he received permission from
    Si Fu Kudding.
    possibly. And your point is??? Quite common in Kung fu, you know, learn a set from a student that already knows it.


    As far as knowledge of the systems taught by Si Fu
    Kudding and since Si Fu Cameron is your Si Fu's Si Hing (elder) in
    the art of Si Fu Kudding, it is he who would know best - too bad
    you are disrespectful to your Si Fu's Si Hing.
    Not disrespectful.
    Not in any way.
    Just voicing my opinion.....as you yours.


    As for long arm
    techniques, any kung fu student knows what these are
    As you mentioned to Mr Gash.....
    Perhaps try reading the post, yet another time. Reading comprehension courses are available.
    I said there are no true long arm techniques in the sets.(as mentioned before.....except for #8, but i disqualify this because, I repeat, it is southern 5 family....probably.....and bears no resemblance to the style called shaolin Kempo.(or whatever it is called now)

    Regarding Southern Dragon Kung Fu styles, there are more than
    what you know - you do not have all the knowledge and besides,
    the system that you know is very close to White Eyebrow if not a
    derivative of it - a system based more on Tiger rather than Dragon.
    Sorry.....dragon and bok mei are sister arts.
    Saying one is dragon....one tiger....I dont agree. They share such common threads. They are intrinsically linked.
    BUT.....you missed the point. I was merely stating that I believe the art has NOTHING to do with Lung Ying More Kiew....thats all.
    By the way......what other dragon arts?
    Please enlighten me on the connection between these said arts.



    From what I have ascertained, Si Fu Kudding
    did not trust your Si Fu and played him, as he kept pestering him
    for forms that he had only shown to Si Fu Cameron at that time.

    Quite funny actually.


    By
    the way, it is well known that your Si Fu has disrespected Si Fu
    Kudding's art by critisizing what he taught eg. forms 4 & 5 -
    perhaps he did draw some elements from Karate - afterall, he is a
    Black Belt in it -who cares as long as it works and work it does-
    combatively (Si Fu Kuddings main concern).

    Teaching Karate, and adding circular moves to #3,4,5,6 and calling it kung fu is very dishonest, to the hard working students. That was my point....do you really disagree.


    Si Fu Kudding said that
    his student - Si Fu Cameron along with Si Fu Askew were his top
    students - ones that he says your Si Fu was envious of,

    Be very careful my friend.
    Best not to throw gas on the fire.
    You know nothing first hand...

    as he was
    never able to best them in sparring.


    As I said before....
    Best not to bring abilities into this ....of course unless you yourself have had your own kwoon for 20 years also.
    Read carefully.....nowhere do I demean anyones ability. I speak truth about what you spout as truth.

    I will not post again on this.
    You have your reality. I have mine.

    train hard
    a strong five








  15. #15
    J.L.BLACKSTONE Guest
    WHAT IS THE POINT OF ALL THIS ACADEMIC DIALOGUE ON THE HISTORY OF TECNIQUES THAT PROBABLY ORIGINATED IN THE STONE AGE.?
    'AS A FLETCHER SHARPENS HIS ARROW,SO A WISE
    MAN SHAPES HIMSELF.'

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