Kevin B- here is info on fei lung dragon style

[Ben Gash]

Kung Lek, I was referring to Sifu Kudding, not Sifu Cameron, sorry if you got mixed up.
Mo Ying, Kung Lek discussed modifications by Sifu Kudding. You talked about altering techniques to enhance combat effectiveness (which, by the way, IMHO is complete BS. If your kung fu doesn't work, you aren't doing it right.), and then went on to say that he intergrated karate into it! Now which parts of that am I imagining?
I really wish you would refrain from being personally insulting, as it really F***s me off, and is unnecessary. You have failed to convey any evidence that you know what you are talking about, and the only person who is sounding pompous on this thread is YOU.

[Gwa Sow Chop]

Wow.....
What a firestorm over an opinion.

Recap:

Kung Lek said....
hi Kevin, I have spoken with Si Fu Cameron about the Dragon style
of Si Gung Kudding and here is what he has given me on the
subject.

- the style is originally Southern Dragon (there are different forms Southern Dragon than the one that Kevin knows) and it is a short hand system on the whole. Si Fu Kudding modified the system
to include some long arm and kicking techniques, as well as some
chi kung. Perhaps due to the additions by Si Fu Kudding, he (Si Fu
Kudding), liked to refer to it as more Northern. Si Fu Kudding was/is
famous for taking an art and improving on it from a combat
perspective.


I disagree...
1. it was not a "system" based or derived from short hand system.....it is really Karate kata reconstituted. (please see Mas Oyama's and Nishyama's great reference texts....and employ critical unbiased thinking.
2. I see no evidence of any northern influence.
3.Mo Ying, I mean...Kung Lek said " was/is famous for taking an art and improving on it from a combat perspective."
No contest. Awesome martial artist. I feel it wrong to say that he took an art and changed it, because it has always been passed off as the real deal from the start. If not then why keep referencing Hong Nam?? By the way, I am quite sure hong nam didnt teach traditional karate kata's.Please reference the excellent text by john Corocan (sp?) that talks about hong nam. It says that he had the first kung fu federation in europe. He taught kung fu not karate kata.

By the way.
I find i quite sad you have to talk abilities, and other misdirections. That was not the topic. We are talking technique, thats all. And its just my opinion, based on what I know......not what someone told me.

Why do you take this so personally? Because it chalenges your philisophical underpinnings, the core of what you believe to be true? Oh well, thats growth. Truth is truth. Sorry. I've been there. It gets easier over time. When you put heart and soul into something, and later find out what it really is....you are disappointed. Then you grow beyond it, and deal with the time/energy loss. Thats the way I felt after practicing the "saifa's"....or kata as it was once known. The point was dishonesty towards extremely dedicated and hard working students.

Please read my posts critically....

The sets are/were reconstituted karate kata....get it?? No connection to dragon style, no connection to northern shaolin. You know things are easy to say hard to prove. I have let the others on this thread speak their minds, and pondered their points....... have you??? To my thinking, you have proven nothing of what you originally stated. You have also not disproven ANY of my points.
So lets call it a day.

No hard feelings. You have your reality....I have mine.
The invite to talk, and have tea, was and is genuine. It was not a threat, veiled or otherwise. Tea, simply tea. Talk, simply talk. I hold no malice towards you, or any others on this thread.....just speaking my mind.....which is my god given right.

I'm not much of a typist....and this was way tooooo hard for a lurker like myself. I prefer to sweat first....talk later. So I will end my last post on this topic.

Train Hard
A strong five

GSC

[Mo Ying]

Gwa Sow
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GwaSowChop:
"Didnt mean to start all of you wringing your hands in anguish over my reply. Simply wanted to straghten out the record."

You have not straightened out the record in reality, but only as you say in YOUR opinion which is not correct in total.
- "the style is originally Southern Dragon
Fiction"

Si Fu Kudding, it is true did not teach Southern Dragon from Hoang Nam to the general student, but he did to a select few.

(there are different forms
of Southern Dragon than the one that Kevin knows) and it is a
short hand system on the whole.
"Sure. But not from Hong Nam. Based on the sets 7, 8, 9 and 10.......no dragon there......sorry. Possibly 7, but as i stated before, probally five family Sil Lum. Neverthless, looking at the sets, it is very easy to discern that 7,8 are from totally differant system than 9,10."


These forms or Saifas 7, 8, 9, 10, as they were referred to in those days are not Dragon. If you read correctly, I said that Si Fu Kudding knows Southern Dragon, not that these forms are Dragon.
Si Fu Kudding modified the system
to include some long arm
"Where????
Same question. Do you mean the gwa/cup in #8. Pretty thin ice my friend. The answer is ....wrong."

Again, you have not comprehended the post correctly. I said nothing of #8 being Dragon. I said that the Dragon style that Si Fu Kudding Knows was modified to include long arm and kicks, to better round out it's short hand techniques. By the way, #8 is basically Tiger and does have some long arm techniques similar to Sow Choys'.


and kicking techniques, as well as some
chi kung.
"Agreed."

Glad you read this correctly!

Perhaps due to the additions by Si Fu Kudding, he (Si Fu
Kudding), liked to refer to it as more Northern.
"Maybe back in the 70's. It was easy to call something.....whatever. Not so easy to reconstitute something and call it something else. So...........false.
There is NO northern in the art.(as defined by the kata)"

AHHHH - again you do not read correctly. I did not say that it was Northern. I said that Si Fu Kudding may have referred to it as Northern due to the addition of kicking to the sets. This was in reference to waht Kevin Barkman's statement of what Si Fu Kudding said to him. And again you demonstrate your arrogance and pomposity with "So.....false"

Si Fu Kudding was/is
famous for taking an art and improving on it from a combat
perspective.

"Hell of a martial artist. His legendary fighting skills are still talked about."

Yes, they are!

"Mo Ying:
You dont really rate a polite reply....but I am trying.you see, you really dont know. You are merely a mime. But, please read on."

Again you demonstrate your arrogance. By the way - I give what I get (except the arrogance).

I have followed this little banter for awhile now. I usually stay out
of these banterings, but you seem to be reef with self importance.
"Does the truth wound you. Embrace it...it is invigorating. Nowhere do I proclaim my self import.....you seem to, in the way you deem yourself judge and jury. By, the way....with no facts to back it up. Just heresay."

You are speaking of yourself here Gwa Sow and you certainly do proclaim self importance and arrogance.


He personally advised me it is primarily a short hand Southern system and he modified it as Si
Fu Cameron advised Kung Lek.
"I disagree."

You can disagree all you want. It is a fact!

As for teaching students this
system, he advised that he taught Si Fu Cameron one half of the
system before he had to leave Wpg
"I disagree. Good story though.

and when Si Fu Cameron
visited him in Calgary at his home he was able to teach him more.

Not the way I heard it......which story is true? Yours??? Why????
Because you were there?? Sifu cameron is an outstanding practitioner. no doubt. But that is not the way it happened. Master Kudding did not teach only half an art while in Winnipeg. He taught to the best of his ability. Are you saying he was decietful????
You are very disrespectful my friend. Nevertheless, you are once again....wrong."

Again you do not comprehend the sentences. I said that he taight half the system prior to leaving Winnipeg and Si Fu Cameron continued to learn it in Calgary (a matter of time and location my friend) - not that only half the art was taught.


As for forms 9 & 10 he taught these only to Si Fu Cameron, but
advised him not to teach these or Dragon to anyone else.
"I will not stoop too low here. The story is false. One side only. Let me just say.... that...... there are others that know the sets."

And again arrogance and misreading. What was said, was that at that time Si Fu Canmeron was the only one to learn sets 9 & 10, not that this was always the case a few years later with Si Fu Kudding teaching in Calgary.

As for
form number eight, yes it is definitely Tiger. Si Fu Cameron was the
only one to learn this form in Wpg. From what I understand, Si Fu
Cameron taught it to your Si Fu, once he received permission from
Si Fu Kudding.

"possibly. And your point is??? Quite common in Kung fu, you know, learn a set from a student that already knows it."

Not possibly, rather FACT! My Point, you discredit Si Fu Cameron by saying what he has told Kung Lek is false. You disrespect your Si Hing who took the time to teach you.


As far as knowledge of the systems taught by Si Fu
Kudding and since Si Fu Cameron is your Si Fu's Si Hing (elder) in
the art of Si Fu Kudding, it is he who would know best - too bad
you are disrespectful to your Si Fu's Si Hing.
"Not disrespectful.
Not in any way.
Just voicing my opinion.....as you yours."

Already stated just above.

As for long arm
techniques, any kung fu student knows what these are
"As you mentioned to Mr Gash.....
Perhaps try reading the post, yet another time. Reading comprehension courses are available.
I said there are no true long arm techniques in the sets.(as mentioned before.....except for #8, but i disqualify this because, I repeat, it is southern 5 family....probably.....and bears no resemblance to the style called shaolin Kempo.(or whatever it is called now)"

Never said that #8 was Shaolin Kempo, just #8 Tiger.

Regarding Southern Dragon Kung Fu styles, there are more than
what you know - you do not have all the knowledge and besides,
the system that you know is very close to White Eyebrow if not a
derivative of it - a system based more on Tiger rather than Dragon.
"Sorry.....dragon and bok mei are sister arts.
Saying one is dragon....one tiger....I dont agree. They share such common threads. They are intrinsically linked.
BUT.....you missed the point. I was merely stating that I believe the art has NOTHING to do with Lung Ying More Kiew....thats all.
By the way......what other dragon arts?
Please enlighten me on the connection between these said arts."

I already stated other Dragon Arts as an example - read again! Southern and Bok Mei, one Tiger and one Dragon - did not say that -onlt tht Dragon is based on White Eyebrow which is more Tiger.



From what I have ascertained, Si Fu Kudding
did not trust your Si Fu and played him, as he kept pestering him
for forms that he had only shown to Si Fu Cameron at that time.

"Quite funny actually."

Yes I agree!


By
the way, it is well known that your Si Fu has disrespected Si Fu
Kudding's art by critisizing what he taught eg. forms 4 & 5 -
perhaps he did draw some elements from Karate - afterall, he is a
Black Belt in it -who cares as long as it works and work it does-
combatively (Si Fu Kuddings main concern).

"Teaching Karate, and adding circular moves to #3,4,5,6 and calling it kung fu is very dishonest, to the hard working students. That was my point....do you really disagree."

He did not call it Kung Fu But Kempo.


Si Fu Kudding said that
his student - Si Fu Cameron along with Si Fu Askew were his top
students - ones that he says your Si Fu was envious of,

"Be very careful my friend.
Best not to throw gas on the fire.
You know nothing first hand..."

What's the matter - hit a raw nerve Gwa Sow?

as he was
never able to best them in sparring.


"As I said before....
Best not to bring abilities into this ....of course unless you yourself have had your own kwoon for 20 years also.
Read carefully.....nowhere do I demean anyones ability. I speak truth about what you spout as truth."

Hmm - you assume (as you have done very much in these posts of yours) and again, show arrogance.

"I will not post again on this.
You have your reality. I have mine."

My reality is in FACT, yours is in assumption, arrogance, pomposity and misleading.

"train hard
a strong five"

Likewise.




[/quote]

[This message has been edited by Mo Ying (edited 08-22-2000).]

[Gwa Sow Chop]

Thats nice.....
It's still Karate.
It's still Karate. Even though you think otherwise. Whatever. They are still reconstituted hian katas.....As I said before....read the Oyama text :-)
Decietfully served up as
"dragon style" Shaolin Kempo. Tremendously funny when youy think the forms are not even recognizable by any former students, due to mutation and whatever by whomever.
By the way...it is now called Kun Tao....same sets though....the karate ones....but with silars and other mysterious language thrown in.(kembang, whatever ect...)
This generation is doing kuntoa.....get it? Why are you defending the "traditional" kung fu system? Read their latest pamphlets...ok?
Or ask Sifu Askew.......he also knows nothing of this mysterious development.....was he not trusted also??? Strange words coming from someones mouth that probably never even met....never mind crossed hands in a friendly way with Sifu Askew. You, my friend are not correct .....and argueing the minute facts dosent change anything. You know not what you speak of. Because someone tells you something...does not make it gospel.
Dont argue. Become aware.
Nevertheless....
You have insulted me on many occasions....I have not done the same to you. It is I that has hit the nerve...no???


By the way....my dad can beat up your dad.

GSC

[Mo Ying]

Gwa Sow,

Again you make assumptions of whom I have crossed hands with and whom I have not.
Don not get your neck all out of joint - I am not insulting you - just stating facts, some of which you do not have knowledge of yet assume to comment on. Besides I thought you said the previous was your last post - so you cannot even keep your word - so why believe much of what you say.

Si Fu Kudding has gone bakc to his Indonesian roots and language, thats all.

DADs!!!!!??????

[Lung Ying]

Hi all,

What exactly is this Dragon style you are speaking about? I am only familiar with Lung Ying Mor Kiew as a "Southern" Dragon style. Who is Mr Kudding?

Thanks