Low bong sao + tan sao?

[IronFist]

I saw a pic of someone doing this on the dummy... a bong sao to the bottom arm and a tan sao to the upper arm. Would these two ever be used in combination in a fight?

I guess I could see a use for high bong sao + tan sao, but low bong sao + tan sao?

IronFist

[chi sau]

north and south punches?
low bong to low punch
alternatively to mid level kicks bong is effective

[TjD]

Originally posted by IronFist
I saw a pic of someone doing this on the dummy... a bong sao to the bottom arm and a tan sao to the upper arm. Would these two ever be used in combination in a fight?

I guess I could see a use for high bong sao + tan sao, but low bong sao + tan sao?

IronFist

theres quite a few uses. passively tan + low bong can be used to redirect a kick, aggressively it can be used to cleave into the centerline, somewhere in the middle it can be used to regain the centerline if you've lost it. if you could do chi sau, you'd see the uses of it are quite numerous once you've practiced the motion.

[kj]

Ironfist,

I don't know what you were watching, but one possibility is that you were watching someone perform a kwan sau movement.

Kwan sau, for me, has a rolling and controlling quality to it, consistent with the bong sau, but utilizing both arms in concert. The other hand/arm is not restricted to tan sau; it could as easily become mun sau or wu sau, for examples. It may even transition to a strike (or something else) before full completion of any uniquely identifiable hand technique, depending on what the dynamics dictate.

However, and mainly as a point of reference since I don't know who you were watching, I have seen many people bang with it quite hard on the dummy, in a hitting or hard blocking manner.

It is also possible that the hands were separated ****her than might otherwise be the case, due to the dimensions of the dummy. Again, this is just conjecture, since I don't know who or what you were watching.

Naturally, if you're trying to describe something else, then just ignore this.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Low bong sao followed by a regular tan is a very very good
combination motion and the mother of many spontaneous techniques and of great very practical usage.
IronFist without getting good wing chun instruction it will be hard to understand the many uses of that combination. It has to and will come out spontaneously with proper training.

[IronFist]

I know how kwan sao (?) is used to stop a kick, but low bong sao+tan sao has a big hole in it so it doesn't look like it would stop a kick well. Hmmm.

Or do people sometimes train two techniques at the same time just to save time, even though they wouldn't be used at the same time?

IronFist

[kj]

Joy is correct.

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

bong tan sequentially with the same hand or bong with one and tan with the other with near simultaneity- both are very useful wing chun motions. But the proper structures for each need to be understood and developed.

BTW- urge great care about redirecting a powerful kick witha kwan sao. Can be done and I can do and show when I need to.
Needs very good timing and structure. I urge great care and relative beginners should not kwan a powerful shotokan or
Oyama kick- they can break your hands.

[AndrewP]

I find kwan sao more as a recovery move. Comes very natural to me. The picture is the end product. It's the motion that counts. And always put forward motion towards the center.

To me rolling hands (kwan sao) occurs when someone tries to trap my hands or push towards me. Without thinking I shift and use the kwan sao motion with forward pressure (light). The person trying to trap me has a problem then. He can attack high or low and it has been neutralized. If he disengages even one hand I can strike because the springy tension is already there. If he lops me I just kwan and shift the other way. I just adjust to him. I then wait for his next move. Usually it's frustrating for my partner because they have to use tricks, speed, or strength to try to overcome. I feel to adjust and control the centerline and wait for an opening. I don't force a move I just wait. And always adjust.

Yuanfen is right when he says it's a mother motion that can resolve in many different ways. I've seen many myself but prefer what I do.

As for kicks, I don't prefer kwan sao. I either gan low, pak, gum, jum, and/or walk in obliquely to his kick or kick his kick. I've even elbowed and kneed kicks. Elbowing and kneeing kicks creates great pain for the kicker I've given and I've received. I prefer walking in and jamming or diverting his kick with a moving stance. I'll even take a little punishment to get both my hands near my parner's one-legged stance and make him pay.

Besides, once in arm range kicks coming in can't be dealt with by kwan sao. The kicks will be low and very destructive.

AndrewP

[cha kuen]

Yes that is a kwun sau. If both of my arms are out and the opponent tries to do a Jut sau, I can turn into a kwun sau to counter.

That's from my limited experience with wing chun. I hope to come to california some day to study.

--wing chun books ---

[YungChun]

The position doesn't stay but it initially closes off a large area.

TjD is also correct.

Check this out:

http://www.sunnytang.com/vingtsun/chisao/CS_Trap1.mpg

[IronFist]

Originally posted by YungChun
The position doesn't stay but it initially closes off a large area.

TjD is also correct.

Check this out:

http://www.sunnytang.com/vingtsun/chisao/CS_Trap1.mpg

Forgive my ignorance, but after the guy on the right does the lop sao with his left arm, why does he let go of the other guys arm and allow himself to be struck? Or does the guy on the right break his grip with some other technique?

Or is it wrong to hold someone in lop sao for longer than an instant?

IronFist

[YungChun]

Originally posted by IronFist


Forgive my ignorance, but after the guy on the right does the lop sao with his left arm, why does he let go of the other guys arm and allow himself to be struck? Or does the guy on the right break his grip with some other technique?

Or is it wrong to hold someone in lop sao for longer than an instant?

IronFist

Play it in slo-mo. The guy on the right didn't let go - the guy on the left is clearing the line and right's grip is 'peeled off' and trapped because he didn't let go.

[mun hung]

IMO - not a good example of kwun sau in relation to the one being used on the dummy.

Not a good example of kwun sau - lop sau - gum/pak da from chi sau either.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by mun hung
IMO - not a good example of kwun sau in relation to the one being used on the dummy.

Not a good example of kwun sau - lop sau - gum/pak da from chi sau either.

Sorry it's all I could find in a pinch. Feel free to post something better or explain what the problem is with this example.