Original CLF forms of Chan Heung ?

[Firebird]

Does anyone know the original CLF forms of Chan Heung, because i red the style was also tought to the rebells , and i don't think they had time to learn all the forms ( about 60 or more) and their application.

[monk weed]

I asked this same question awhile back with very little response. What I've been able to find out is that alot of the forms changed from their original concept. I'm thinking that the forms were not as complex as they are today. What the name of the original forms are I could not say and I'm not sure if anyone outside of the chan family would know. As far as the rebel clf activities and training goes that may also be a family guarded secret.

[CLFNole]

I have heard that the rebel training side of CLF is more relative to the Hung Sing side. Not sure if this is true but I remember reading something about it and Chan Hueng not being associated with the training of rebels.

Peace.

[monk weed]

That's interesting.....That helps me understand alittle more if true. I read somewhere that chan related clf has the cross pattern forms as the first set after the stance training then ba gwa sets and finally the animal sets. I don't know where the weapons come in.

[alecM]

CLFNole it’s interesting that say the CLF Hung Sing branch were more for rebel training because Fong Yuk Shu from our schools lineage was a follower of DR Sun Yat Sen’s political movement in his early days and around the same time I believe he was also an associate Yeun Hai from the Fut San school.

[CLFNole]

AlecM:

I am no chinese historian so I thought to tread lightly on this one in light on the never ending discussions relating to Chan Hueng and Cheong Yim. Not sure but I thought I read on the Chan Family site that Chan Hueng was not involved with the training of rebels. That doesn't mean some of his students were not though.

Regardless, CLF played a part in the kung fu of the rebels of that time period.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

No matter what style of martial arts, when it gets taught to the rebels for arm-to-arm combats on the streets and battlefields, the forms have to be modified to be more efficient.

The drills will be more like san sou combinations than forms as we know them today and CLF has a lot of very effective san sou combinations and they are the building blocks of a form. I am sure that was how Chan Heung and other old masters made them up and they still do it the same way today.

To look for the earlier forms created by Chan Heung, we have to look at some of the less well known ones with a more basic structure, like the Yum Yeung Sup Ba Dat (The 18 Yin and Yang combinations for Take Downs) or the Chuin Lung Sup Ba Gak (The 18 Patterns of Penetrating Dragons), which I have heard from my teachers but have never seen them done before.

Sai Moon Kiu Jow San Ma (Four Doors Bridge and Running the Live Horse), where you only work on the footwork in four directions, would fall into this category as well. Likewise, I would imagine the forerunner of Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui would be the more simple Chair Kuen Jarb Ma (throwing punches while holding various stance).

The more archaic forms don't flow from one part to another, they are made up of distinct and separate bits, like a series of san sou combinations throw together without bothering to be linked up, but we can see traces of the more recent forms from them, because they have far less frills and sophistication.

Hope this helps, just my 2 cents worth.

[CLFNole]

Extrajoseph:

Your last reply made me think and I came up with the following question that I would like your opinion on.

"Do you think that the CLF forms that are around today were created (not all of course) by Chan Hueng or where they added by later generation sifus?"

Personally I think the later. I would think that some forms of course came from Chan Hueng, but more likely he created alot of smaller patterns that were put into forms by the students who came thereafter.

Just wondering what you think. This is open to all viewers of course.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

IMO, no all the forms were put together by Chan Heung as you said, but the overall structure and philosophy of the system was set and passed down by him right from the beginning. There is a clear underlining framework that holds everything together and it is based on Chinese metaphysics like all things traditional. Every generation refined, embellished and added onto the content based on the same philosophy and tradition.

It is not the number or the length of the forms that mattered, it is how they were structured together that is the hallmark of Chan Heung’s system. From the basic Ng Lun Ma to the more advanced Bak Gwa and Animals forms, from the short daggers to the long staff and the Nine Dragons trident, From the rigid broadsword to the flexible steel whip, from one person to multiple persons sets, from the simple Ching Jong to the complex wooden dummies and the various Qigong sets supported by Liangong methods, Chinese medicine, Chinese metaphysics and Chinese folk culture like lion dance.

Always working from the simple to the complex, from the hard to the soft, from the short to the long, from the far to the nearer, from the rigid to the flexible, from the external to the internal, from the martial to the civil, from the seen to the unseen and from the gross to the subtle and back again.

In other words, the seeds for all the forms were sowed by him right at the beginning. I am not sure, but I think that is what you mean when you said, "more likely he created alot of smaller patterns that were put into forms by the students who came thereafter".

JosephX

[CLFNole]

That is what I was referring to. He created the "form" or "characteristics" of the style the foundation so to speak and the later generations turned his ideas into the forms of today. I would guess however that some forms were created by him.

Most of the branches have "sup gee kow dah kuen" and "sheung garp dan kwun" is also common. With forms within the branches sharing the same name but looking very different do you think that common names were shared or the forms just evolved from teacher to teacher based on their respective likes and dislikes of various patterns?

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

Yes, I think so and the proccess of evolution still goes on today. If you stay long enough with your teacher then you will find what he did earlier in his teaching career will be different what he did later on and often he taught different students in a different way and emphasized things differently at different times.

However the essence of CLF don't change and some of the names are common to all branches. When you see someone does CLF properly, you will know.

[yik-wah-tik]

let's get this straight, please?! master yuen hai was no associate of fong yu shu, he was his sifu. so on fong yu shu's tree you do have hung sing clf in your lineage, and that should reflect on your website, and being that i am directly of yuen hai's lineage we're cuzin's cuzin'!

but as to forms, no one not even the chan clan can claim what is an original form because no one knows what, and how it was taught. remember the hung sing branch was training hardcore rebels, and according to fut san it wasn't until chan ngau sing who broke up a set that was taught to jeong yim by ching cho woe serng that was over 2000 moves and broken up into 3 sets. when asked it is believed that chung kuen, ping kuen and i think kau da or sup gee. no one including joseph can say what was taught during that time. so anyone including the chan clan claiming anything original, has more loop holes. but we may claim originality to our individual branches. clf should evolve, making it suitable for todays standards so if the forms change, then your clf will evolve as well. history has its place but ability and growth should always continue and nothing continues without growth.

frank

[Serpent]

Frank, why are you so insecure and why must badmouth the "Chan Clan" so often?

You really have issues, dude.

[extrajoseph]

Every branch and every school does their forms slightly different and often have different names and we are evolving all the time, but we all have the same “seeds” and the same characteristics with more or less the same structure. In another words, we all do the same CLF with different expressions over time.

All we were saying was some forms by nature were older than others but we can not be 100% sure what they were. When asked, I gave my 2 cents worth of what I thought they could have been and the reasons for my choice, that was all.

But if you want to attack the "Chan Clan" (that is anyone who cannot trace their lineage to Jeong Yim) and say Ching Cho gave Jeong Yim something completely different and because of that Futsan does their CLF differently to others, then what are they? Have you compared the contents between the Futsan and the non-Futsan schools before you make the remark?

You want to claim originality for Futsan because they have Ching Cho, then please tell us what is so original about what Futsan do that others don’t, not just in fist forms, what about weapons and wooden dummies and Qigong and Lian Gung methods? What about fighting theories and MA philosophy?

Don’t give us the story about how 2000 moves passed down by Ching Cho were broken up into 3 sets, please tell us the essential differences in theory and practice added on by Ching Cho.

Did you know Jeong Yim taught in Kong Moon before he went to Futsan and he also taught in Dong Ling his old village in Sun Wun and they still have his lineage teaching there? Have you check out Kong Moon? Have you been to Dong Ling Chi Jo Gwoon? Now that is where Jeong Yim’s Ancestral School is located. Can you tell us whether they do the same or different CLF to Futsan?

JosephX

[JAZA]

are there descendants of Jeong Yim in his village?