Emei Bai Mei

[ittokaos]

Well, I have been reading this post and I am glad that someone is finally even mentioning Fushan Bak Mei.

I am currently being taught by a former student of Eddie Chong and I am currently researching the only styles of Bak Mei that are available in the US(to the best of my knowledge). Those are Fushan and CLC(is not given an area because is shows up all over china and even vietnam). What I have gathered thus frar is that there are about 7 different styles of Bak Mei. Whether or not this info is correct has yet to be verified considering that I only have seen 3 of them.

What I have learned in terms of history our style(Fushan)does not have CLC as a (lineage)holder. The reason for this is that the Wind Fire Taoist did in fact teach individuals other than Cheung Lai Chuen, Bak Mei. One of those individuals was his disciple Lau Siu Leung who lived in Fushan. Also, it seems as though CLC Bak Mei is a composition of the Bak Mei that he was taught and the other southern styles that he is said to be a master of (many CLC practioners have confirmed this). The Emei(Omei) system would probably be pretty close to the Fushan style (i would imagine) considering that it doesn't have the other styles of CLC in it.

I personally have never seen the Emei style but I imagine is is very fluid and appears as a combo of hard and soft. If so, it would resemble Fushan Bak Mei. I would imagine that those 2 styles would be as close to the original as it gets. However, there are more styles out there and just because it calls itself Bak Mei and doesn't look like CLC, doesn't mean that it's not Bak Mei. If that were true than CLC Bak Mei wouldn't be considered Bak Mei either. Futhermore,(this is going to **** people off) just because Cheung Lai Chuen came out to the world and exclaimed that he does Bak Mei first, doesn't mean that everyone else is a liar and that he holds direct lineage. Look no further than modern day Shaolin and Chen Village to see that one cannot just go by who tells them first.



I hope this helps,

WF

PS---have more discussions on Bak Mei. Fushan, CLC, Emei..etc. Who cares the style b/c I love it all!!!

Thanks!!

[bredmond812]

Look no further than modern day Shaolin and Chen Village to see that one cannot just go by who tells them first.

Can you elaborate on this statement for me please?

Thanks in advance,



B Red

[ittokaos]

Well, let's see. If you are not too well versed on the current state of Shaolin it is this: very few monks do kung fu(tcma) or can actually fight. The majority of it is modern wushu and is used to promote Shaolin as a tourist destination in order to line thier pockets. This is the sad state of shaolin today. The reason I said what I said(typed) is that they still promote everything as if they are still the greatest kung fu masters but that is no longer the case. They are also still promoting that their kung fu is the greatest when the majority of their kung fu is modern wushu. Most of the monks today who leave shaolin will verify this by saying something along the lines of "shaolin kung fu is not done at shaolin temple".(See Russbo.com,Gene Ching Articles(when he's not kissing their @$$), Bullshido, Kung fu Sifus aorund the world, Books, Kung Fu magazines, online articles, people who have any info on Communist Govt.s, etc...)

As for Chen Village, it has recently come into light that Chen Village has been suppressing the TaiJiquan of the neighboring villages and stating that their Tai Chi is fakeand/or not allowing their styles to come out at all. That is why styles such as Thunder Style and Zhaobao have only just recently been spread to the US. The PRC have been assisting this by "regulating" which styles are legit and which ones aren't. (See Zhaobao artists who know their lineage and or Thunder Style artiists(that know their lineage))

The point is that we believe them b/c they said "this is the way it is" first and not b/c we actually know it to be true.

I hope this helps,

WF

[bredmond812]

it was the Chen village part i didnt know. thanks for the clarification.

B Red

[ittokaos]

It was a surprize to me too.

[Lau]

Ittokaos,

Would you mind telling me more about the Wind Fire Taoist? I never heard of that name before, but we have "wind fire hall" written at the top of our Pak Mei altar.

Regards, Lau

[Shaolin Master]

Futsan Bakmei is still CLC based Bakmei.

Check out youtube http://www.youtube.com/profile_video...uWu&p=r&page=2

Regards
SM

[bredmond812]

Futsan Bakmei is still CLC based Bakmei.

Check out youtube http://www.youtube.com/profile_video...uWu&p=r&page=2

Regards
SM

My old Bakmei Sifu, Luo Hanzhong, was from Futsan, but he had nothing to do with CLC.

B Red

[ittokaos]

Well, from what I know(which isn't much), the Wind Fire Taoist (Fung Fou Dao Yan ) is the person from where our lineage and the CLC lineage split. There isn't much known about him(which is to say that I don't know much about him) but what I do know is that he was the third one down who is "known" to have been taught Bak Mei. It is from there that he taught his disciple from fushan (Lau Siu Leung) who taught Li Yong Jian, who taught Eddie Chong, who taught My Sifu. I would imagine that "Wind Fire Hall" is called so to pay homage to the Wind Fire Taoist.

According to the CLC lineage, the Wind Fire Taoist is to have taught Cheung Lai Chuen as well and from there is where he established his lineage.

I regards to the youtube thing, I don't know what those clips prove. They are just youtube clips on bak mei. I am aware that there are those in Fushan that practice CLC Bak Mei but they are not from the same lineage as Eddie Chong(Fushan Bak Mei as opposed to CLC Bak Mei in Fushan). Sifu Li and Sifu Chong's Bak Mei differ from CLC Bak Mei, but that is not to say that there are not similarites. If you are to look at the CLC Sup Jee and the Fushan Sup Jee you will definately see the similarities in the styles. By looking at the styles alone, one can see how Cheung Lai Chuen may have learned our style first and then altered it to fit comfortably with his current martial styles.

In a few weeks, I will go to Sacremento to visit Sifu Chong to train and discuss Bak Mei in depth. I may find out more about the Wind Fire Taoist at that time.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wouldn't the Pak Mei that CLC created incorporate the Wander's Style and Dragon style he first learned, plus the Red River Hakka martial arts that his father and uncle taught him?

Here's some info on Emei:

Many Fujian martial arts, symbolize the union of the snake and the crane and the tiger, as seen in Yongchun White Crane, Wing Chun, and some other styles. Legends say that Miao Shun (Miu Shun) was the person who fused these arts. Miao Shun was in all likelihood a nickname, and his real identity may never be known (though the Miao family were relatives of the Ming royal family and thus hunted by the Manchu). Others join the Crane and Tiger, or the Dragon and Tiger. All are based on the union of the soft and hard jings.

It is possible that this “Miao Shun” had Emei training because many similarities exist between Emei and some Fujian styles, especially those that are Snake-Crane-Tiger based, such as Yong Chun White Crane and Wing Chun. Like Emei, White Crane is known for its Chuen Ging Jeet Lak (inch force exerted from the joints) and is considered a Hard/ Soft (pang guy noon) martial art. Perhaps what became Wing Chun originally came from merging Yongchun White Crane (which part of it was Crane and Tiger based) with Emei Snake and Tiger methods? The Tiger typically refers to training of the Spine, but is there also a connection between Emei’s “Snake” Body and “Tiger” Walking, and Wing Chun’s Snake and Tiger? There is according to research by Jim Roselando, a Wing Chun master that met with Emei Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong (see his website for additional info: http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules....rder=0&thold=0 ) :

The root of Wing Chun is the Siu Lin Tao (training of the little details) set, and the root of the other common arts of the Fujian region is San Chin (Three Battles) or Som Bo Jin (Three Step Arrow). These certainly represent two different types of Base Cultivation and most certainly different forms of “Ging/Qi” cultivation.

Wing Chun Kuen is characterized by its ‘narrow’ horse and ‘short’ bridge. The Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma (character “=” clamping the “yang” meridian horse) and the Emei “=” shoulder Wuji (empty) horse both are designed to cultivate the Zheng Qi (True/Proper Chi) and both follow the same Yin/Yang relationship of sinking of the Yin and raising or supporting of the Yang (as in Yee Jee Kim “Yang” Ma). It is also interesting to note that in the alchemy traditions of the art, the Snake or Serpent can be regarded as the dormant dan tien Zheng Qi coiled at the base of the spine waiting to be unleashed to penetrate the body’s pathways (much like Indian yoga discusses the kundalini: uncoiling of the snake at the base of the spine.

Research conducted by Wing Chun master Cho Hung-Choy, his students, and grand-students in the U.S.A, shows strong evidence in the form of written records with regards to the "mother system" of Cho family Wing Chun Kuen, the Siu Lien Tao. This mother system was a Buddhist internal martial system created during the Song Dynasty.

Wing Chun begins with Siu Lin Tao (Small/Little Ideas or Training). One of the Emei 12 Zhuang sets is called Siu Zhuang (Small/Little Ways). The first section of the Siu Lin Tao set (also found and further expanded on in the first section of the Biu Jee set) contains this same training concept for the hands/fingers as done in the Emei Mountain neigong sets. In the Cho family lienage, this section is called Snake Sliding Cocoon, in the Yuen Kay-San lineage it was originally called Sae Ying Sao (Snake Shape hand), and in the Fung family, Sae Mun Bai Jee (Four Direction Swaying Fingers). Many arts have this sort of training but what makes Wing Chun’s process different from that of other Fujian arts like Southern Mantis is the “Rou”(soft)-style Snake Binding property.

Emei also has the Tracing the Taiji Circle movement. In the same manner, in the Wing Chun lineages of Fung, Cho, Yuen and others, there is a common Sao Kuen/Sik (Fist or Section Closing Sequence), often referred to as Lop Sao, which is also popular in most southern martial art traditions. Wing Chun calls it the Taiji Circle, which is “O”-shape and an older, symbolic term for the line the fingers follow when performing the action. Another aspect of Emei is the Inch Silk Worm Finger, which functions like Wing Chun’s Darting Finger method. The actual Darting Finger motion itself is common to numerous Southern Fist traditions, and is even called by the same name in arts such as Southern Mantis.

Finally, Emei’s Tiger Walking sets have a first section called 8 Methods Under the Foot, which is similar to Wing Chun’s 8 leg methods or 8 kicks. Wing Chun masters have said it is composed of 12 Ways and 8 Methods, same description that Emei uses as well. Perhaps this Emei Snake was fused with the Fukien White Crane of Fang Chi Niang’s Five Plum footwork to create the Siu Lin Tao? Siu Lin Tao and its Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma are different and distinct from other Fukien arts. Instead, other Fukien arts and offshoots preserve the San Chin (3 battles)/ Su Men (4 gates) root (which is seen in the Hakka martial arts that were influenced by Tai Tzu Quan).

-------------------------------------

During the early Qing era, many monks had traveled to Emei mountain and learned the martial arts and neigongs taught there. They eventually reached the Fujian temples and brought this internal martial arts influence there. The tiger based neigongs from Emei were said to have been brought to Fujian by Bak Mei. Today the Bak Mei style is a dragon and tiger based martial art.

(In 1227 A.D., a monk traveled to the top of Mt Emei, one of China’s Four Holy Mountains. This monk trained and meditated on Emei and, when he reached enlightenment, took the name Bai Yun (White Cloud). Grandmaster Bai Yun wrote all his sacred knowledge, including his system designed to cultivate health and treat illness while striving to attain enlightenment, in a book called The Emei Treasured Lotus Cannon which is currently being held in a Beijing Museum. Bai Yun’s art consists of The Twelve Ways, The Six Tiger Steps (or Tiger Walking), Meditations, Healing Sounds, Medicine, Weapons, etc. Emei neigong emphasizes healing, internal self-cultivation of Qi (energy), and the cleansing of one's heart so that one's true nature and latent abilities can emerge. In the Emei system, the 12 Zhuang - Ways (or Paths), commonly known as 12 posts, are the Body Cultivation. These are specific short sets designed to un-lock and holistically link the body while keeping it healthy and strong. They are similar to India’s Yogic practices but of Chinese origin. In the Emei system it is the Snake that binds the 12 Zhuang and Emei Art together. According to the 12th generation Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong, the Mother of the 12 Ways is the Tian Zhuang (Heaven Post). According to Fu Wei Zhong: “Tian Za Zhuang is to Emei just as San Ti Shi is to Xing Yi”. The last Zhuang in the Emei art, Mei Za Zhuang, is based on Meditation practice, one of four different types of meditations that the Emei practitioner studies at that level. The Emei 6 sets of Tiger Walking exercises are the 12 Ways for the Lower Half and uniting the Upper and Lower Half. Emei Weaponry comes in three forms: Sword, Short Blade (Dagger) and Hand Spike, with the long weapons not being practical in the Emei dense and mountainous terrain.)

[ittokaos]

It would and does. Thanks for the history lesson. Always a pleasure, Sal.

BTW, any info on when Meir Shahar's book is coming out?

[Yum Cha]

Wind Fire Daoist - is that a sniff of Doo Wai?

Listen to Shaolin Master, there are few people as clued in as he is.

Itto, if you have to ask what those videos prove, than its obvious you need a better understanding of Pak Mei. Its all right there in front of you, if you know what you're looking for. That's why these debates are so tragic.

For example, if you think futsan pak mei is different than CLC pak mei, than why do they do some of the forms created by CLC?

If you know what the principles taught to CLC by the monks were, why are they absent in some of the other lineages that claim to come from the same monks?

Universal law of the universe, 2+2 always equal 4.

The stories swirl, propogate, morph and regenerate, but the hand is the hand, you have it, or you don't, and it doesn't really matter where you got it, or the details of the backstory. Buyer beware.

[ittokaos]

First off, I was stating what I learned during my reasearch into the styles. This includes interviews, books,websites, and oral history. Whether or not I know true Bak Mei(or whatever) is not the arguement here. There is no arguement. Just statements that have caused others to go on the defensive. For that I apologize.

Now in regards to the Doo Wai thing, I am pretty sure that he is a White Tiger sifu. The wind fire taoist (Fung Fou Dao Yan ) is from who our lines differ and by only looking at Cheung Lai Chuen as the end all be all in bak mei is(in my opinion) foolish. Now, if one had read the above statements you would have seen that I have stated that although the styles differ, they have many similarites. The forms being just one similarity. In CLC Bak Mei there are many different forms(way more than in Fushan Bak Mei) and while some are similar, there are those that are very different and only seem to appear in the hakka styles that CLC is known to be a practitioner of.

That right there leads me(as well as many others) to believe that these were added at a later date and not taught to CLC by the monk who originally taught him Bak Mei. Now having said that, couldn't one say that CLC Bak Mei would be considered a traditional style of Bak Mei and possibly differs somewhat when compared to the other styles? If so, then my point has been proven. Obviously it's all still Bak Mei just the styles differ. Fushan has more of an Old School taoist flavor where as CLC is an amalgamation of the former and the styles that CLC was a pracitioner of. The core would still be there.

Obviously, in the end it's all about the skill of the person and not where his/her style came from. Never once did I say that CLC was a bad style or a fake style. I have stated though, is that I love all Bak Mei regardless of the flavor.

In regards to the videos, they prove nothing more than they are videos of the style. If the attempt was to prove that Fushan Bak Mei came from CLC, it has failed. To summarize, just b/c CLC said it first doesn't mean that he was right. All that being first rpoves is that you are first. Missinfo Does indeed spread (look at wing chun) but it is not the miss info regarding fushan bak mei that is spread the world over.

I hope this helps,

WF

[mantis108]

You know I was mistaken about Wind Fire Hall before but at least I would admit that I didn't have all the facts straight. But seeing all these so-called researches and such, I am like reading Alice in Lalaland instead. Now I miss Alice in Wonderland.

2+2=10, I am telling you, Yum Cha you couldn't have been more wrong!

Mantis108

[Yum Cha]

OK Mantis,

You're right, Doo Wai is all about Fun Do Duk, not Fung Fou Dao Yan, fair enough. Its all Chinese to me, that's why I'm such a poor kung fu scholar.

Feel free to correct me further if I'm wrong. I'm always hungry for a feed of good info.



Itto, lets just examine some what you said,

Yes, CLC Pak Mei incorporates other styles as well, the preperation phases to learn the "Real" Pak Mei. He created those forms from his past knowledge. This is pretty common knowledge, to those of us who do practice the art.

Concerning Futsan Pak Mei, they do some of those "prepatory" forms created by CLC. Right there in the videos posted by Shaolin Master.

As such a well read researcher, I'm simply asking you to explain why.

I'm not putting myself forward as the expert - you are.

I'm only pointing out factual and logical inequalities and asking you for your explanation.

Surely, you don't expect a free pass to authority in your attempts to codify the history of an art you don't train and don't understand, but you "love"?

What were you saying about foolish?