OT: buddhism question about 'attachment' ?

[Akuma]

I’ve read a few books by the Dalai Lama and one of the big concepts he talks about is this idea of ‘attachment’ and how one should avoid it.

I understood all of his examples of why attachment is bad and how it brings suffering but what I don’t understand is how this concept fits into the big picture of living ones life.

For example, how does attachment fit in with a persons goal setting? If one is not attached to their goals, then how can they hope to achieve them?

[Braden]

Not being attached doesn't mean not caring.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Braden
Not being attached doesn't mean not caring.

Yeah that's true. So how would one mentally think about goal setting if one wants to maintain the non-attatchment frame of mind?

In other words, if one is not attached to achieving their goals and that doen't mean they don't care about it, how does a person visualise these goals in their mind?

I'm just confused about how to apply this concept in my daily life. I'm finding it difficult becuase it's as though there are all these things I want to achieve and yet at the same time I feel guilty because I'm so attached to all this personal goal striving.

Arrrgh, I obviously don't understand this concept properly

[Braden]

"I feel guilty because I'm so attached to all this personal goal striving."

Sounds like you understand it.

[Akuma]

Originally posted by Braden
"I feel guilty because I'm so attached to all this personal goal striving."

Sounds like you understand it.

lol...but that can't be it, otherwise it's a catch 22 :|

[Internal Boxer]

Hmmm when buddhists refer to attachment, you may be looking at the finger pointing to the moon rather than the moon.

Aspirations and goals are fine, but be honest with yourself do you think about those goals often?? if you do spend time thinking about them your mind is not in the here and now but always thinking about the future, thats why they teach focusing on your breathing this will bring the the mind to what is happening now, there is no future this is merely a construct of the mind, there is no point dwelling in the past either, be mindful of the present moment.

When Buddha held a flower and looked at it in front of his students, all his students were confused they started thinking about what could be meant by his actions, only one student smiled back at buddha.

Buddha was just enjoying the beauty of the flower in that moment, and thats all there was to it. - simple!!

[TkdWarrior]

if one is not attached to achieving their goals and that doen't mean they don't care about it, how does a person visualise these goals in their mind?

this is tricky situation... understand that as a person wat maximum u can do is Act(ie for achieveing goals) but the result is not in ur control so u shouldn't be attached to it..if attached u'll get hurt when u can't achive it...
now the problems starts when this attachment thing becomes attachment to itself...
"Attachment to Not attach should also be avoided"

-TkdWarrior-

[Ryu]

Take an objective look. Positive goals, positive actions, equal positive lives, positive results. There is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve goals. There's nothing wrong with having a strong drive to achieve these. Don't think that in order to be an "enlightened" person, one has to live day by day without any human emotion, anger, love, sadness, joy, fear. It's all part of the human experience. What you want to avoid is being controlled by these things, as well as being controlled by your goals and desires. If you use the energy you have in accomplishing your goals in order to focus on healthy career choices, understand yourself better, look forward to each day, make moral decisions, etc. Then you've got a lot of positive things going for you.
If you let the energy you have for your goals define who you are, control every emotion in your body, etc. You will snap like a twig the first time something screws up in your goal setting.
To be "non-attatched" means you are free to continue on. If a barrier comes up in front of you, you don't just fall over dead.

ALL the philosophies that talk about "non-attatchment" "bending like a pliable spring" "being one with change" etc. They are all talking about the understanding of "when one door closes, another opens." You don't "bend" so that you go the opposite direction. You "bend"so that you can spring back even more powerful than before.

The greatest injustice to these philosophies, be they Asian or Western is to think they advocate a philosophy of "not caring."

A philosophy of "not caring." is a very weak and negative one.

To care is to be human.

Ryu

[Arhat of Fury]

godd question Akuma,
Nice post Ryu, Ive had the same questions in my readings.
Thanks for clarifying.

AOF

[[Censored]]

For example, how does attachment fit in with a persons goal setting? If one is not attached to their goals, then how can they hope to achieve them?

You know that joke about I.T. circa '99? "Work, friends, sleep: choose 2." It was funny because it was true. If you don't like the rules, then you get out of the game.

[diego]

Originally posted by Akuma


Yeah that's true. So how would one mentally think about goal setting if one wants to maintain the non-attatchment frame of mind?

by bieng realistic about it. i think from a bhuddists perspect the only problems that may arise when making goals, is unrealistic wanting.

such as teens who comit suicide because they are ugly and picked on...its not realistic you will be a model, wich is why you get picked on as your ugly...so fuc'kem find another path...start dissing yourself to make peeps laugh and to draw attention away from your ugly face so they wont hit it anymore.

so, i think a bhuddist would calculate the realistic variances of wich paths he could take, and then he would pick one...but thier would be no attitude of uneccassary/unrealistic wanting!.

[David Jamieson]

What are keeping goals but attachment?
What is the need to keep goals but attachment?

You could play your life in a natural flow without goals. Because you would release your attachment (or "need" in this example) to achieve a pre-governed path of your own creation (your set goals).

Now, throw in the four noble truths and the eight fold path, add flour, eggs and bake for one epiphany.

Goals are as illusory as attachment. The lessons in attachment teach us to deal with a sense of loss as well. Because we attach ourselves to others instead of pure love , we possess them as "our" friend, or "my" friend, or "my" mother, father, brother, sister, uncle, etc, etc. Because of our attachment to these people we suffer when they are gone from us.

We suffer by feeling anger, or we suffer by feeling sorrow. if we truly love them (which in many ways we do) we would be happy at their passing according to the cycle of things.
Anger and Sorrow are negative emotions that drain us.
Attachment brings these emotions on all to often.

But life is not black and white and the sutras most certainly make allowances for this trait of the current human.

On the other hand, it is Buddhism's "Goal" that humans should become enlightened.

cheers

[desertwingchun2]

When speaking of Buddhism one must be aware of the two main sects of Buddhism. Mahayana and Theraveda schools have a different approach to enlightenment. The practice of addressing the human condition is unique to each school. Therefore, non-attachment would be looked upon in a variety of ways depending on the road one travels.

"When the six are untied the one is gone also"

just a thought,
David

[eulerfan]

Think about this:

Buddhist monks spend hours creating these beautiful, intricate mandalas out of sand with elaborate, painstaking detail. When they are finished, they blow the sand away.

It's great to have goals but impermanence is law. Say your goal is to become a computer programmer. What if, once you have acheived the necessary training, something new is invented making computers completely obsolete? The more attached you were to that goal, the worse that will feel.

So, try not to be too attached to them.

Complete non attachment is what you do if you are trying to become enlightened. And it is a LOOOOOOOONG term goal. If you are trying to become enlightened, don't ask for Buddhist advice on a KF board. Give up all of your posessions and become a mendicant.

If not, just try not to be too attached and pay attention to what happens when you do become too attached to things. Learn and grow and try.

You don't have to do it all in one lifetime.

[Akuma]

Hi folks, thanks for the responses. I'm still thinking about them actually.

I also posted this question on a Buddhism news group and this is how two people responded.

Goals are a means to and end.
If you are attached to your goal then you derive self worth out of reaching
the goals.

Example: I gained 7 pounds while working in Wisconsin.
My goal is to lose 10.

I am eating better and exercising to reach my goal. When I reach my goal my
sense of accomplishment will be in taking better care of my body, feeling
healthier, etc.

If I do not reach my goal, I do not feel ugly, impotent or label myself a
failure. I have not attached myself to my goal.

Like many concepts, this is one of the harder once. It's kind of like
trying to reach peaceful meditation. The harder you try for it, the further
away it gets.

This was the other response

You can work to achieve a goal without having an emotional attachment to
the outcome. That's the point, enjoy the process, don't strive for an
outcome. To pick up on Tenzo's weight loss example... By striving to
loose 10 lbs by a certain date, you are setting yourself for sadness. If
you don't reach the goal, then you are sad because of your failure, if
you do reach the goal, then you are left with an empty "what now"
feeling (or worse, a greedy feeling of conceit.) Being overweight means
you aren't eating right, instead of striving to loose weight, learn to
enjoy eating healthy and don't attach so much emotional significance to
your exact weight...

What's interesting about this thread and the various posts is that they all have a different spin as to what attachment is and how one ought to apply it. I'm still not totally convinced I understand it.

I am seeing a clash between the mental faculties required to remain un-attached, and to achieve goals.

For example, in order to achieve a goal one has to visualise the goal vividly. From that point foward it is helpful to plan out a few stages of it and carry it out, reminding oneself of the goal constantly. In doing this, the sub-conscious is allowed to work through various stimuli (which ever forms) and direct the decision making processes of the brain towards solutions for solving the goal.

Most of this theory I speak of is from 'Psycho Cybernetics'. Basically Maltz says that we feed the mind a goal and we visualise in detail how it feels to acheive the goal etc. That allows one to cement the reasons for attaining the goal and consequently providing the necessary motiviation to achieve it. The subconscious or goal striving mechanism, as he calls it, finds ways to get past obstacles and ultimately achieve the visualised goal.

This buddhist philosophy of attachment seems to be contradictary in terms of the type of frame of mind one must place themselves into, in order to effectively achieve said goal.

So, after thinking about Maltz says, it seems to me that attachment is everything if one is to effectively achieve ones goals and if that is then the case, it basically means that setting goals and achieving them is not the way for a buddhist?

Am I missing something here?--I must be : /