REHASH - Jiu Jitsu MASS BIULDING WORKOUT-SEVENSTAR!

[ricksitterly]

This is a follow up post to my original "lifting - a waste of time" thread.
I'm sorry sevenstar but your comment about how jiu jitsu is not the way to build mass is completely WRONG. I gained 15 pounds of muscle in a little over a year's time doing only grappling. Food and water intake is the MAIN component to gaining mass. NOT your weight training program. As long as the muscles are being stressed in some way, shape, or form, they will take a high calorie diet and transform the calories into muscle ( provided you are eating the proper amount of carbs and proteins). I maintain that grappling is an excellent mass builder as it provides a full body strength training workout, as opposed to a weight training program which only tends to work specific groups of muscles- mainly just the larger muscle groups such as shoulders and pectorals. The more workouts you add to your weight training, the more muscles you can excercize.... BUT, the more workouts you add to your weight training the longer it takes, burning more calories which must be replaced afterwards in order to gain mass. Also, due to the larger span of time it takes to work the entire body with a weight training program, you are at a higher risk of suffering the catabolic effects of overtraining. Grappling gives you a more intense full body workout in a short period of time. This is key for building mass. Don't believe me? Try grappling a 200 lb man for ten minutes straight.

[Brad Souders]

I've been grappling for ten years this year. I weighted 135 pounds when i first started grappling. I now weigh 135 pounds ten years later. I eat like a horse. I believe its more of your own body type then it is whee grappling itself does it. Grappling just tones the muscle out instead of actually building mass. I'll agree it does rip you and obviously the cardio is second to none but i don't believe its the massive muscle producer.

later, Brad "try grappling five guys 5 minutes each that out weigh u by 60 pounds" Souders

[morbicid]

I suppose if you grapple in a low weight class you can maintain a low weight, but if you put yourself against much bigger people, (trying to resist an armbar from someone 40 pounds heavier for example) than you can build mass in your grappling workout.

[kenso]

I think the amount of muscle mass you build will be dependent not only on body type but also your style of grappling. Body type will also determine your style to a certain extent. An ectomorph (skinny) isn't going to approach the game the same way an endomorph (stocky) will. I'm 5'6" and 185 lbs. I have short thick legs (27" inseam, 23" circumference). I can't leg ride or triangle choke worth a doody. Your body will predispose you to certain maneuvers. Some people will prefer power moves, others more subtle techniques. This is partly body type, and partly mindset.

Certain people will tend toward weight gain based on body type, regardless of the activity (assuming intensity is high in all cases - obviously you're not going to get ripped playing golf). Others will tend to tone already existing muscle fibers. However I do think that certain activities will tend to give more mass to more people than others. Weight training for a martial artist should be an additional training tool, not the end all be all. To say that it is worthless in the arena is disproved IMHO by all the dedicated artists who are also dedicated lifters. I personally prefer body weight exercises, but I would certainly never tell someone who lifts that it's not doing them any good - that is up to them to decide. Only they know their own body.

Rick, I'm glad that grappling has had such great results for your body, but it is only your body. In fact, most grapplers don't gain weight simply from grappling. I wrestled in high school. Throughout the entire season working out three hours a day, I wouldn't gain a pound. This is good, based upon weight class. However out of season, when I would tend to lift more (actually had the energy to) I would gain weight. Again this is only an individual result.

Ultimately it is up to each person to determine the methods that work best for them. There are no universal methods that will work the same for everyone. When they say "results may vary" they're not kidding. Anyway with the amount of material available, we all have the resources to maximize our training regimen, and in the end that's what it's all about, right?

[SevenStar]

I tell you what.... you keep grappling. find a buddy who wants to start a mass building program. in a few months, compare results. I grapple 200 + pound men 15 - 20 hours a week.

Also, think about something you said...

"BUT, the more workouts you add to your weight training the longer it takes, burning more calories which must be replaced afterwards in order to gain mass."

what burns calories? Do you really think that if you grapple for an hour you will burn LESS calories then someone doing heavy, slow lifting for 30 mins? you're crazy if you do. either that or you are half arse grappling.

Anyway, it's my lunch time, and I'm about to hit the gym and work out. I'll come back to this thread when I get back.

[Ford Prefect]

LOL! Good stuff!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ricksitterly
This is a follow up post to my original "lifting - a waste of time" thread.
I'm sorry sevenstar but your comment about how jiu jitsu is not the way to build mass is completely WRONG. I gained 15 pounds of muscle in a little over a year's time doing only grappling. Food and water intake is the MAIN component to gaining mass. NOT your weight training program.

Here's my take on that - you weren't in stellar shape to begin with. Take an obese, inactive person and put them in MA. What happens? they will lose weight, provided they don't increase they're caloric intake. On the same token, take a skinny person and put him in MA. The skinny guy eats alot and he is doing push ups, stancework, etc. What happens? he gains weight and develops more musculature. The body is adapting to the workout and his muscles are getting stronger. He's eating alot so he's gaining weight. What's gonna happen is after a while, that will stagnate. your body is used to the stress levels put on it and muscle development stops. your workout is then more endurance based. endurance work is not muscle building work. If you are burning more calories than you burn while grappling, then what will happen is you will gain weight, and it will be stored as fat. You won't continue gaining muscle mass from grappling alone.

As long as the muscles are being stressed in some way, shape, or form, they will take a high calorie diet and transform the calories into muscle ( provided you are eating the proper amount of carbs and proteins).

Calories aren't transformed into muscle....protein is what builds muscle. All calories aren't protein - if you are just haphazardly eating alot in an attempt to gain muscle, you will be in for a nice shell shock later... And, like I said before, that statement is wrong - the type of stress you put on the body does matter. that's why people weight train differently for different activities. Do you really think a marathon runner trains the same way as a football player? if so, why aren't the distance runners hyooge? it's not solely because of their diet - it's because of their training. The body can only be in one state at a time - anabolic or catabolic - it can't be in both.

I maintain that grappling is an excellent mass builder as it provides a full body strength training workout, as opposed to a weight training program which only tends to work specific groups of muscles- mainly just the larger muscle groups such as shoulders and pectorals.

And I maintain that you are WRONG. grappling is highly aerobic. it's a fat burner. see my above comments to understand why you have gained weight and a little muscle.

The more workouts you add to your weight training, the more muscles you can excercize.... BUT, the more workouts you add to your weight training the longer it takes, burning more calories which must be replaced afterwards in order to gain mass. Also, due to the larger span of time it takes to work the entire body with a weight training program, you are at a higher risk of suffering the catabolic effects of overtraining.

That one paragraph alone shows you don't know much at all about mass building...

Grappling gives you a more intense full body workout in a short period of time. This is key for building mass.

if you are grappling for short periods of time, either
1. you're half arse grappling, or
2. you're gettin tapped really quick and are having to restart.

Don't believe me? Try grappling a 200 lb man for ten minutes straight.

as I already stated, I grapple 15 - 20 hours a week - I know what it can do for me. My advice to you is to read some books about mass building and about the body in general.

[rubthebuddha]

gonna have to side with sevenstar on this one. why? because he's right. also, because he's hyooge and would squoosh me.

i don't understand how someone can think that the type of exercise isn't the biggest factor in body type for athletes. a long-distance runner and a body builder can eat the same amount of protein, carb and fat, and spend the same amount of time training and working out, and what do you know? the runner's body is tight, compact and light on its feet. look at the lifter, and you'll see mass, and plenty of it.

the body won't build muscle mass it doesn't think it needs. it doesn't take much strength to run, but to do it for long periods of time, you need endurance and lots of it. so the body will adjust itself to make the running easier -- a lighter weight, compact muscles and a very efficient respiratory system. it knows it doesn't need huge muscles to perform its movements, it just has to keep them well stocked with air and fuel.

on the flipside, a lifter's body needs mass to move mass. best way to do it? let your body know that it needs more mass by lifting regularly, and it'll realize, "hey, this will be easier if i make these muscles bigger." does a lifter's body have any reason to work on a respiratory system that can push itself for hours? nah, because one can get huge with relatively shorter workouts. it just needs lots of strength to use during those workouts.

i don't understand why this is even an argument. a person can get strong from doing any physical activity if they weren't that strong to begin with. a person who can't do a pushup will find that they will be bigger when they are later able to do ten. a little less so for 20. beyond that, you're not going to get big by being able to do 100 straight.

[Royal Dragon]

One of the major precepts of modern exercise phisiology is that the body changes best with variety. That being said, wouldn't the body develop better if you grapple, AND lift??

Instead of making this an either or kind of senario, why not blend the two. I bet the results of blending grappeling, and weight lifting will be far superior to doing only one or the other.

Any thoughts guys???

(Like I don't know what your going to think here )

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
One of the major precepts of modern exercise phisiology is that the body changes best with variety. That being said, wouldn't the body develop better if you grapple, AND lift??

Instead of making this an either or kind of senario, why not blend the two. I bet the results of blending grappeling, and weight lifting will be far superior to doing only one or the other.

Any thoughts guys???

(Like I don't know what your going to think here )

Depends on what your goals are. If you are trying to put on pounds, all of the caloric burn from grappling can prove counter productive. If you are trying to lose weight, go for it.

variety keeps the body on its toes, but that's not how... if you grapple and lift, the body gets used to grappling and lifting. After it's accustomed to it, that's when you shock it and vary the routine.

[ricksitterly]

The fact that your grapple 15 - 20 hours a week (or whatever) sevenstar indicates that you are a more relaxed type grappler. Not that I'm saying that's a bad way to grapple, as it is a trait of an experienced grappler to remain relaxed and use good technique as opposed to brute force. However, if you tend to overexcert yourself and use too much energy when you grapple (which beginners tend to do and find themselves extremely fatigued in a matter of moments), the muscles are getting a more intense level of stress. This doesnt indicate smart fighting strategy, but it does give the muscles a highly intense workout. As a beginner in jiu jitsu, I remember feeling like my muscles were on fire the next day after a workout. As Kenso said, it depends on your style of grappling. As you become more skilled, you learn to rely on technique rather than strength, which is fine...but will not challenge your muscles.

"Here's my take on that - you weren't in stellar shape to begin with. Take an obese, inactive person and put them in MA. What happens? they will lose weight, provided they don't increase they're caloric intake. On the same token, take a skinny person and put him in MA. The skinny guy eats alot and he is doing push ups, stancework, etc. What happens? he gains weight and develops more musculature. " - sevenstar

I have no argument with this. It proves my point... an inexperienced athlete can benefit from trying out a grappling class just as well as joining a gym and they will notice improvement in their body's muscular build. That's exactly my point!! Of coarse your body will reach a point of stagnation after you've been grappling for a long time... just as it will in a gym! In a gym, you must increase the weight and lower the reps - in grappling, you must in crease the size of your opponents and the level of intensity in which you grapple. Ten minutes of straight grappling on the mat should be exhausting no matter how experienced you are, or else you are simply grappling too relaxed to get a workout from it. You grappling 15 to 20 hours a week is equivalent to doing very high rep excercizes with weights in that your muscles are so used to the workout that they are just getting endurance training at this point. I also have no argument with the fact that your natural genetic body type is a huge factor in whether or not you will make gains from grappling (OR in the gym). I liked royal dragon's comment about how the body responds best to variety and I agree. This is why I crosstrain between different styles of martial arts at different times of year. I phrase things the way I do simply because I love getting you guys all worked up. hehe No need to insult my knowlege of muscle building (or lack thereof).

I also KNOW that all calories do not promote muscle growth and I've posted about it several times. However, just because muscles are made of protein doesnt mean a high protein diet will build them up. If you are not eating enough carbs the body will burn proteins for energy (often taking them right from muscles). Also it is proven that a high protein diet dehydrates you... which curbs muscle growth as muscles are roughly 70 percent water. Have you noticed that the main people marketing this theory of high protein = big muscles are the same people trying to sell you protein supplements? Carbs intake is just as important (if not more) than protein intake. Some of these protein shakes have over 50 g of protein in a serving. Your body can only absorb roughly 30 g of protein every 3 hours (depending on the individuals metabolism, abundancy of digestive enzymes such as hcl, and provided they dont have a malabsorbtion problem in the intestines( due to inflammation or mucous secretion) ). Also, some people's digestive systems simply "dump" excess protein right back out. I never take protein shakes because they give me the runs. And dont forget about amino acids ( primarily L- glutamine ) which are a MUST for building mass. I also try to keep a healthy amount of sodium in my diet to help my body keep all of the fluids I am drinking.

"what burns calories? Do you really think that if you grapple for an hour you will burn LESS calories then someone doing heavy, slow lifting for 30 mins? you're crazy if you do. either that or you are half arse grappling" - sevenstar

OF COARSE NOT! I am saying that 30 minutes of heavy slow lifting will not work as many muscle groups that grappling can. And if you grapple intensely enough, a half hour is sufficient. Not an hour. But 30 minutes of lifting usually is not enough to get an effective full body workout (if you intend to work chest, back, shoulders, bi's , tri's , forearms, abs, neck, traps, quads, gluts , and calves). But then again, a lot of people alternate muscles groups from day to day. And like I said, 15 to 20 hours a week of grappling is TOO MUCH. You are risking OVERTRAINING if you grapple like this with any intensity. Are you familiar with the term "overtraining"? Maybe you're the one who should do some reading.

[Royal Dragon]

Every individual has different levels of conditioning at different times of ther lives. Example: in my Mid 20, I could hold postures pretty much for ever on a daily basis. Now, of I were to hold my old routine even 2 minutes, I'd be over training. Two years from now (if all goes well), I'll be needing to wear a weighted vest wile holding the same amount of time I did in my md 20's, just to continue progressing.

Seven Star is a pretty serious player, and 15-20 hours a week may not be over training for him, not even close maybe. For you, it may be over training. It all depends on each individuals fitness level.

As for the technique over brute force thing. Yes, over time we relax into our skills, and it becomes much less physically demanding. This is why the Chinese martial arts always include Qi Gong practice with the martial. In the beginnig the martial will develop you quite a bit. But as you mature, and you learn to use the structure, and body mechanics, the practice is too easy from a physical stand point, and you need to do supplementary training to keep developing physically.

It's all common sense really.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

something i dont understand rick ...

earlier you mentioned how all that time spent on lifting could have been better spent learning to fight. i agree with you here. i was just thinking the other night about how many of us vain fu ckers have six packs. ab routines are great, but all that time spent doing crunches and cardio could have been better spent drilling and sparring (which is also good cardio). how many great fighters do you see with six packs vs. those without? the six pack certainly isn't going to hurt, but it doesnt seem to be as common as a strong round stomach or a fairly flat one. im also willing to bet that a good number of the fighters who do have six packs are genetically blessed with good definiton from naturally low body fat. this is all coming from a guy who will be starting up ab training again so i can look better with my shirt off.

so i agree with you on one point, but in then in this thread you say how sevenstar is probably grappeling very relaxed and thus not getting as much of a workout as a newbie ...which is true .... but it sounds like you are saying that it's a bad thing .... that you should overexert the techniques for a better workout. that completely contridicts the argument of time better spent. why the hell would you force techniques for the sake of a better workout? maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it came accross to me. i'm no grappler, but one thing i have learned from messing around with some of my friends who are is that relaxation is a huge advantage in grappeling. i remember one time when one of my friends managed to get on top of me in the butt fu cking position (not one of the ones who actually knows how to grapple) and i just acted like i was gonna buck one way and then the other and let him go nuts trying to control me .. as soon as i felt his energy draining i easily flipped him on his back and landed on him with a forearm in the throat. it's not just grappeling either ... relaxation is key in every standup art i have seen. even my muithai sides are much stronger due to learning to relax everything that isn't actually involved in the movement.

weight lifting is like cross training in other styles ... it may not directly benifit the main fighting style, but it benifits other areas where the individuals needs or wants improvement, thus making them better rounded and a better fighter overall. you don't need to lift to be able to fight ... strength isn't everything ... but it wont slow down your martial progress if balanced right either.

[morbicid]

Hey gunned down atrocity -

[morbicid]

Wow you really put that smak down on sevenstar rick. Nice come back. I would be interested in seeing who would win in a match between you two. He was RUDE to insult you like that.... Me, I cant be bothered by your stupid grappling theory because I know I would just explode your head with my chi!!!! I dont require mass building. So I dont care if you're wrong or right.... I'm too busy with my head explodee. Grapple your little butts off.... it's nothing compared to my chi!!!!!!!!