Kiu Sau and Key Word Methods!

[Mckind13]

Recently allot of questions have arisen regarding the Kiu Sao methods of Chi Sim and a perceived similarity between them and the 14 methods of Chi Sau as published by Robert Chu. http://www.chusaulei.com

I will post our 14 methods of Chi Sau and what I have found online from other WC and southern systems. I have only a real understanding of the key words from my method and am posting the others for comparison. I would hope that others post and compare their key words too.

My goal is:

1 Have families that use a key word system compare the similarities and differences
2 If HFY uses them and they would like to share I would be grateful
3 If a VTM member or someone in the Chi Sim family who understands the Kiu Sau methods would post their understanding this would also be sweet.
4 4 Keep it clean!

What I see are similarities between Chi Shim, Yuen Key San and Hung Gar key words. The Yip Man family tends not to have key words but maintains the Kuen Kuit. From my discussions with Sifu Chu, I know that his Wing Chun knowledge is broad and includes several lineages that maintain these key words. I also know that he compiled these while still living in New York as a way to better express his art. The meanings and uses of each key method are clearly laid out in the article I have quoted from.

These 14 methods are posted on the VTM site and are associated with Chi Shim
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/c...im_history.php

1 Tiu (Pick up "with a stick")
2 Buot (push aside)
3 Da (hit)
4 Pun (fold)
5 Juar (grasp)
6 Lai (pull)
7 See (shear)
8 Tshai (quick pull)
9 Bik Force (cornering someone)
10 Hup (continue to put pressure on - "overpowering")
11 Taan (swallow)
12 Tuo (spit)
13 Buort (taking change - "gamble")
14 Saat (stop - "kill/subdue totally")

These are Hung Gar key phrases that located on the Web.
Hung Gar the twelve conceptual keywords are http://www.geocities.com/hkhunggar/BridgesPDF.pdf

Gong (hard),
Yau (soft),
Bik (pressing),
Jik (Straight),
Fun (Divide),
Ding (Steady),
Chun (Inch),
Tai (Lift),
Lou (Leak),
Wun (Issue),
Jai (Control),
Ting (Plan)

These are the ones I learned from Sifu Robert Chu
http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/art...es_chisao.html
Mun Fa/ Yin Fa - Asking/inquiring and enticing
Jou Fa – Running
Jeet Fa - Methods of intercepting
Tao/Lou Fa - Methods of leaking and stealing
Jiu Fa - common methods of Gor Sao
Sim Fa - Methods of evasion with steps, body displacement, dodging, hand movement
Dai Fa - Methods of guiding, leading
Jie Fa - Methods of borrowing an opponent's power and energy
Fou - methods of floating, unbalancing, uprooting an opponent
Chum - methods of collapsing a person's structure or sinking
Tun - methods of swallowing an opponent's force and dissolving it
Tou - methods of expelling force in contact with the opponent
Tuen Fa – methods of breaking and delinking the body connection in an effort to preserve the body structure
Jip Fa – methods of linking up the body connection once the connection is broken

These are the methods for the Yuen Key San system (also found in the above article)

Dop (Join),
Jeet (Intercept),
Chum (Sink),
Biu (Dart),
Chi (Stick),
Mor (Feel),
Tang (Press),
Dong (Swing),
Tun (Swallow),
Chit (Slice),
Tou/Lou (Steal/Leak),
Kou/Saat (Capture/Kill).

Thanks,
David

[t_niehoff]

Hi Dave,

DM wrote:

Recently allot of questions have arisen regarding the Kiu Sao methods of Chi Sim and a perceived similarity between them and the 14 methods of Chi Sau as published by Robert Chu. DM

There is not, and never was, a genuine "question" here -- as you show, the information on all of this is readily available on the web and folks can see for themselves that these are very different things. The "question" was merely a blatant attempt to try and divert attention away from the topic at hand; and such tactics merely reveal that someone felt they were losing the argument (when you can't defend your position, you attack someone else). Moreover, we've answered a similar "question" ("didn't Robert steal his 14 chi sao methods from Benny's 14 chi sao drills?" and then we demonstrated that they were nothing alike) with the same participants on the WCML a while back. TN

Terence

[Savi]

Mr. Niehoff,

Please show a bit more face to Sifu McKinnon, and stay on topic with this thread. Sifu McKinnon is offering a mature discussion here. He has opened the door for a new thread, and I see no invite for personal insults here, or your luggage. I will not tell you how to conduct yourself, but your martial etiquette is less than appropriate for this thread.

Sorry for wasting the bandwidth.
-Savi.

[black and blue]

Savi says:

Mr. Niehoff, Please show a bit more face to Sifu McKinnon

Swiftly followed by...

I will not tell you how to conduct yourself, but your martial etiquette is less than appropriate for this thread

Maybe you guys should argue over direct email; the moderators are going to close every thread at this rate

[Mckind13]

Hi Terence. I know but I thought that I would make the effort to call attention to what was on the web. I like the key word concepts. It is sort of like a zen question (what is the sound of one hand clapping) in its complexity and need for quite meditation to find deeper meanings.

Hi Savi. No need to put Sifu anywhere in my name. This is a public forum and I am just part of the comunity. What do you think of the key words? Do you learn those ar ones like them in your school?

B&B. What do you think of the topic?

David

[black and blue]

... the subject matter (the 14 methods) is interesting, but that said, pretty much every Wing Chun/Tsun discussion interests me to some degree.

But this thread is surely going to end up in the same state as the other two that have been closed down, i.e. those 'in' the VTM battling with those 'out' of it.

(sigh)

But even as I write this I know I'll get sucked in

[reneritchie]

Good thread David! Just a couple notes:

Kao & Saat were part of my first sijo (Cheung Bo's) approach and while some of Sum Nung sigung's students list them alongside Yuen Kay-San's 12, the first 11 you list are YKS' actual.


RR

[Mckind13]

Hi Rene

Does this mean that you work with an 11 key word model or is there a different method you include?

What reason if any do you think the additional one was added?


Also when we closely examine a single method or a combination of methods we look to apply them in many different ways with our partners.

for instance, Fou - to uproot, float, lift

I might experiment with ways to put my opponent into positions to use this energy or I might look at various methods of floating and uprooting them. Also I might see what methods I can use to lead to Fou or look at best what to do after I have used it. More so I might look at how to apply this method with various body methods or even what to do to return to my center should this energy be used on me.

My goal of course is to integrate it all and just let it happen when it needs to

David

[Mckind13]

I meant to ask how you train yours or how the are integrated into the art/training.

David

[t_niehoff]

Hi Dave,

DM wrote:

Hi Terence. I know but I thought that I would make the effort to call attention to what was on the web. I like the key word concepts. It is sort of like a zen question (what is the sound of one hand clapping) in its complexity and need for quite meditation to find deeper meanings. DM

"Keywords" as I understand it, is simply a traditional method many TCMAs - including some lineages of WCK, Hung Ga, etc. - use as a shorthand means to organize (for teaching purposes, for example) their conceptual approach. Robert, as you know, formulated his 14 Chi Sao methods as "14 keywords" (you listed the site) in an attempt to give his students a means to grasp the various tactics or strategies of chi sao. Other WCK instructors have done the same (like Wong Sheung Leung's 4 methods of chi sao). For example, one of Robert's methods is "jou" or "running"; it tells us that this is simply one tactic or strategy to deal with an opponent. We can "run" from force, "run" to openings, "run" with the hands, "run with the horse", etc. As you correctly note, the "keyword" is more properly a point of inquiry -- when do we "run", why do we "run", when is it most effective, when is it not effective, what counters "running", etc. One of our kuit tells us that our training involves "exploring changes while sticking with a partner", and IME these "keywords" or stratagies give us a point of departure in our explorations; they are not a formula. TN

Terence

[yuanfen]

FWIW/FYI/IMO etc

I havent been keeping up with the details in these threads.
BUT-

TCMA is full of a understandable propensity for classifying
concepts, motions, techniques, weapons using favorite number ssystems. This form of textual organization allows arts to be passed on to students who understand the inner meanings
of some of the terms and learn more about the rest.

In our (Augustine Fong) lineage there are lots of organization by bumbers...3, 5, 8, 13 principles, 108 etc.

Using similar numbers does not necessarily mean that the substance is the same.


joy

[reneritchie]

David - The YKS 12 Methods are:

join, cut off, sink, dart, stick, feel, press, swing, swallow, slice, steal, leak

Some of Sum Nung's students turned tao & lao into a single, compound method, and added in Cheung Bo's kao & saat as another compound, thus keeping the count the same (12).

For me, they are a strategic system that, rather than complex, by-wrote technical procedures in the absolute, allow me to stay focused and directed during the chaos of combat. I personally, for my own current development, use the first 5 as an overall guide, the following 7 as means towards the first 5's ends.

Savi - Please understand that Master Niehoff (he has been doing WCK at least as long as Master Meng, so if we're really concerned about face and respect, we should lead by example) is probably quite frustrated by the repetitive "questions" some of the trolls "ask". For example, the 14 Chi Sao method has been asked and answered many times (and is obvious to anyone who bothers to look anyway), as was the question on "credit" for Complete Wing Chun (I keep excellent e-mail records ). I'm sure you can relate to that kind of frustration, as your family no doubt experiences it as well.

Yuanfen - You are correct. Look at how many different interpretations their are even among things in the Yip Man family, and when you add in other lineages, both similiarities and differences acrue in layers.

RR

[Mckind13]

Terence

As always a more concise explanation that I could have given.
You are very right about the methods being a point of exploration for the system

YuanFen

Thanks for the reply, do you train or use any kind of strategic methods? Maybe you use different terminology or some other way to explain some of the base strategies of Wing Chun.

Looking forward to a reply!

Rene

Thanks, very insightfull. Do you see the first five as a loose progresion say first joining or cutting off or even darting in in order to stick or sink and then looking to the next 7 points as methods for dealing with the energy or do you conceptualize it differently say joining then feeling , pressing , swallowing etc. to lead you into a method of finishing the situation?

Thanks

Well I have to drive LA

David McKinnon

[reneritchie]

I personally (and others in the SNWCK system may do it the same or different, this is just me) use the first 5 as my stategic "blue print" and something I can always revert to if/when things come up. I don't necessarily have to use all 5 as separate entities (while I may flow from Dap Kiu to Tan Sao, to Chan Seung Kiu to "Pak" Da to Gum Mun, I may just as well express all 5, or aspects thereof, with a single Chung Choi).

The others, to me, round out the 5. I can feel where best to press or slice in order to break structure; I can swing or swallow to cut off, and I can just dart in and steal a strike, or leak through to get it (or any other combination thereof).

I was recently reading Roy Harris' (a JKD and BJJ guy) progression and he was discussing how first one needs to learn how to recover position, because if you don't, a beginner will always be out of it and unable to apply what they learn by anything other than luck or unrealistic circumstances. Once that was learned, they could work on positional dominance (getting and keeping the favorable position) since if they couldn't do that, again on luck or lack of reality would let them attack successfully. Once they could get position, they needed to learn techniques to apply from those positions. Once they learned the techniques, they needed to focus on each one and learn to set it up so they could enter into applying it under a variety of different circumstances (eg. for WCK this could be akin to telling your Chi Sao partner you are just going to apply Tan Da, and then trying your best to learn how to make it work against as much as possible; then further saying you're only going to work on left Tan Da, etc.). After this, its considered you've developed an overal personal strategy, and the ability to flow from one technique to the next while maintaining control and getting out of any trouble you get into.

I see our WCK similar (though not identical) in that if I don't join, I have no relationship with the attacker; if I don't cut off his offense, he can keep on attacking me and I will be lucky to do anything about it (or overly reliant on attributes); if I don't sink his defense, he will be able to hold me off in the same way; if I don't dart in my counter, I will be stuck trying to keep him unable to attack or defend, and not get anywhere towards resolution; and if I don't stick afterwards, I may be in for a rude surprise brought on by overconfidence.

As I said, though, these are just my current thoughts.

RR

[t_niehoff]

Hi Rene,

Rene Ritchie wrote:

Savi - Please understand that Master Niehoff (he has been doing WCK at least as long as Master Meng, so if we're really concerned about face and respect, we should lead by example) is probably quite frustrated by the repetitive "questions" some of the trolls "ask". For example, the 14 Chi Sao method has been asked and answered many times (and is obvious to anyone who bothers to look anyway), as was the question on "credit" for Complete Wing Chun (I keep excellent e-mail records ). I'm sure you can relate to that kind of frustration, as your family no doubt experiences it as well. RR

Please don't even jokingly refer to me as "master" -- I own no slaves. Personally, I think such titles are at the very least meaningless and more often than not are indicative of just the opposite. TN

Terence