OT: General opinion on war with Iraq

[Stranger]

crack and compton anyone

Another conspiracy theory that nobody has even come close to providing evidence of.

**********************************
"Colored" is a really un-PC term.

[diego]

Stranger thanks for that fascinating update i have achieved bhuddahood now...PROPS!!!


n thanx fo the pc etiquette for ones pc...i'l be sure to apease your english proffess'n azz nexta time!.

[Stranger]

[rogue]

I was referring to more current bills that try to gain additional rights based upon ones uncontrollable urge to eat big macs or upon ones sex practice preferences.

Just so you have all the facts.

http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/ea/bios/41pbush.html

The Republicans were divided between conservatives and moderates in the 1960's. Then, and later, Bush sometimes seemed to oscillate between the two sides. Certainly his voting record in the House was generally conservative. The liberal Americans for Democratic Action gave Bush a zero rating in 1968. He had opposed the public accommodations provision of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, arguing that moral persuasion at the local level was more effective. But in the House he supported open-housing legislation, which was unpopular in his district. Most often he endorsed NIXON administration policy on the Vietnam War. Yet he broke with conservatives by supporting birth-control programs and opposing financing of the supersonic transport.

Text of Civil Rights Act of 1964.

[diego]

Thanks for the info rogue!.

and stranger if you werent bieng a smartass i was...so no confusion Bro

[Stranger]

That's cool.

[Sasha]

Originally posted by TibetanKF


If you are in the United States you should have access to all sides of the argument and be able to make an informed / intelligent decision. Those of you in Australia or the UK, I'm not sure what kind of coverage you get on the issue, but it sounds pretty one sided. I would suggest learning a little more about the issue. Somehow in the news coverage and in the views of many nations the US has become the enemy and Iraq the victim. Take a closer look at Iraq an you will change your view. Sadam is the world's enemy and apparently the US is the only country brave enough to do anything about it.

I'm curious. Does it actually occur to people like you that it's conceivably possible that it's your own press which is biased, not everyone elses?

Anyone with any sense knows that there's no such thing as an unbiased news source, so it's when people maintain absolutely that the facts they have are the Correct ones that those of us with some semblance of intelligence get suspicious.

And looking at these things from a generally objective perspective, do you think the media is less likely to be biased within the country proposing the war, or those countries that stand to be less directly affected by it, and are capable of distancing themselves to an extent?

Sorry if this comes across as being a bit trollish, but it's variations on attitudes like this all over the world that will make it difficult for the human race to actually survive the next century or so intact.

[HighRoller]

Well in my opinion there is no un-biased new source, period! I think the best thing to do is to get news from the most diverse sources and try to find the truth on your own. The web is a great place for hearing different sides of an issue. Still its hard to tell truth from fiction and opinion.

Anyway back to the topic:

I'm an American and personally I'm against a war with Iraq, at least as things stand now. I think going into iraq will cause far more problems for the US then solutions. It will be a hit to our already hurting economy, distract attention and resorces from fighting terrorism and give terrorists more recruiting propaganda.

I also think the problems in korea are happening now because they know the US is tied up in iraq and no one else will stop them. Where's the UN on the korean crisis??? Where does the EU stand on anti-proliferation??

The only people who stand to benifit from a US attack on Iraq are the Iraqis who would be much better off with a new government then the tyrant they have now. Quite frankly though thats not something I'm willing to die for.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by HighRoller
The only people who stand to benifit from a US attack on Iraq are the Iraqis who would be much better off with a new government then the tyrant they have now. Quite frankly though thats not something I'm willing to die for.

I am not so sure if that is actually true.

Many times I am told that under a new regime the Iraqi's will benefit from the Dollars generated by the Oil-sales and so on.

Recent History and globalisation has shown us that:
1.) Very little money if ever filters down to the average joe in the road.
Who will rap the koney from the Oil, the oil-corporations and the owners of those oil-fields NOT the average citizen.
2.) Restructuring and rebuilding is dependant on foreign money and aid.
So far little has really been done in Kosovo and afghanistan on those points.
3.) A lot of Iraqi will be alienated from their fellow Muslims if they appear to be bowing to the USA too much.

Was is always a loose-loose situation for everybody involved.
Something that not many Americans have realised as they haven't had a major war/invasion on home-soil since the civil-war and never experienced first-hand the devastaion and after-effects of War.
More people were killed in 1 squirmish in WW I or WW II than during the whole US Civil War.

Thus we also have the differing stances/views about going to War in the EU and the USA.
We Europeans remember WW II a lot more clear and still feel a lot of the effects of it.

Just my Opnion.

[rogue]

More people were killed in 1 squirmish in WW I or WW II than during the whole US Civil War.

Which skemish?
Civil War Military deaths 970,227.
WWII Military deaths 1,078,162.

Thus we also have the differing stances/views about going to War in the EU and the USA.
We Europeans remember WW II a lot more clear and still feel a lot of the effects of it.

I guess you Europeans forgot about WWI pretty quick as you guys then through another WW pretty soon after.

Question, which European country turned back the Germans?
The Dutch, Swiss, Belgians...?

[dezhen2001]

Which skemish?

now the numbers may be a slight exaggeration - but we know for sure that the Battle of the Somme for example wiped out sooo many people on both sides of the trenches, all for a few feet of dirt. u cant forget something like that so easily.

dawood

[HighRoller]

Hi cow...

I totally agree with your first few points although iraq is much more modern and educated then afganisan. If they were a more free society (with out economic sanctions) they could prosper I think.

I must disagree with you on Americans not fearing the effects on war at home. The whole reason that Bush is giving for justifing this war with iraq is to "fight a small war now so we wont have to fight a big war later". There is a real fear that if saddam has and sells nuclear weapons to terrorists they will be smuggled into and used in the US.

The gulf war lasted 100 hours after the ground offensive started. The government is betting that a second iraq war can remove saddam quickly at a minnimum loss of life.

Now I'm not buying that argument and I think this war is going to cause far more problems then it will solve. I dont think Americans are ignorant about the distruction of war, though. I think it is just that fear (after 9-11-01) that is allowing Bush to press ahead against so much resistance.

Just an opinion but it might help Europeans understand why many Americans might be suppoting this war.

[rogue]

The previous numbers were US dead only. Here's a more complete breakdown by country, military deaths, civilian deaths and total deaths for that country.

USSR 12 million 17 million 29 million
Poland 597,000 5.86 million 6.27 million
Germany 3.25 million 2.44 million 5.69 million
Yugoslavia 305,000 1.35 million 1.66 million
Romania 450,000 465,000 915,000
Hungary 200,000 600,000 800,000
France 245,000 350,000 595,000
Italy 380,000 153,000 533,000
Great Britain 403,000 92,700 495,000
United States 407,000 6,000 413,000
Czechoslovakia 7,000 315,000 322,000
Holland 13,700 236,000 249,000
Greece 19,000 140,000 159,000
Belgium 76,000 23,000 99,000

Maybe we should have stayed out of that one too?

[Laughing Cow]

US Civil War Lost = 498.000 from different causes or les than 1.5 % of the Population.

WW II US loses = 407.000 or less than 1% of population.

The Battle of the Somme had more than twice as many deatsh as the USA had deaths and wounded in the civil war.

The US never hd to rebuild their country after any major conflict or suffer occupation from enemy troops.
And it does effect you and change your perception for generations afterwards.

When Europeans fought their enemies usually were only a few hundred kilometres away and not across an ocean, thus retaliation and similar take on a very different aspect.

Thus the americans that have never fought in war only know those images from TV, even the troops that fought hardly ever had to suffer the after-effects of the devastation.

How many US Citizens can truly understand fire-bombing or grwoing up in a City where there is NO single pane of glass intact and most of the City is in ruins.
Food has to be scavenged or stolen from farms, etc.

The USA lost troops only, the rest of Europe lost a major part of their population, women and Kids included.

This is not a criticism of the USA, but facs and Opinions shared by many People outside the USA.

As to who fought the germans during WW II, The USA alone, I doubt it.
We learned the major forces were, Russian, British, French, United states.
Plus all the local armies and underground troops.

Sometimes I really think that Americans believe that the WHOLE of Europe just rolled over during WW II and waited for the US-troops to rescue us.

[red5angel]

"How many US Citizens cna truly understand fire-bombing or grwoing up in a City where there is NO single pane of glass intact and most of the City is in ruins.
Food has to be scavenged or stolen from farms, etc.

This is not a criticism of the USA, but facs and Opinions shared by many People outside the USA."

Yet someone else claiming to know the opinion of everyone else on americans......

Exaclty how many europeans at this point REALLY understand what it is like to grow up in a city where no glass is intact and the buildings mostly rubble? What is the percentage do you think?
Also, how about you and anyone else who feels the need, not try to speak for every non american out there on how they feel about us ok?