OT: Police shoot unarmed 12-year old

[Watchman]

They receive special training that should prepare them for those situations, does the average citizen??

They do receive special training, but it isn't foolproof - and it doesn't lend them any jedi-like powers.

Also, "average" citizens have access to every form of specialized training that LEO's undergo - you just have to look for it.

In my opinion Cops should be held more responsible for their actions than the average Citizen.

They are. I'll give you an example -

Say you break into my house in the middle of the night. Me, as an "average" citizen - at least here in Utah - can put a bullet through your head without giving you any warning.

However, if you slap a badge on my chest, I have to announce that I am a police officer, tell you to cease your course of action, and give you "reasonable" time to comply before I can start putting rounds your direction. Big difference.

[fa_jing]

My sifu is a Cook County Sheriff. He was telling me about the training tapes that they had to watch - usually footage from the State Police as they always have their cameras on in their vehicles. Well a trooper pulled over a car, and the guy is heavily under the influence (I'm guessing crack.) The trooper pulls out his weapon as the guy is jumping around. Even after doing so, the guy is acting completely belligerent and dancing, flapping his arms around and moving towards the trooper's vehicle. At some point the trooper moves in to try to control the situation, my sifu described this as an advancing line of control. Then for some reason he moved back somewhat. The perp suddenly reaches inside the trooper's vehicle and takes out a shotgun. Even after all of this, the trooper is still talking to the guy and trying to reason with him. Also, he has taken a receding line of control and has taken cover behind the open door of the other car. The perp opened fire. They say the trooper had time to get off twelve shots, of which only 1 was on target. He of course was killed.
The discussion focussed on what was going through the officer's head - they are thinking that he was probably concerned about a lawsuit.

This obviously is the other side of the coin.

[Laughing Cow]

Watchman.

I don't expect them to have Jedi-like powers, I also know that the training is not fool-proof.

But using an excuse like he is just another "human" or similar doesn't quiet cut it.

Their behaviour and actions need to be above the average citizen, and they need to show skills that set them above the average citizen.

If this does not happen when what is their function and role??

I don't know about the States, but in my home-country it is VERY tough to become a Cop, they got very strict requirements for physical (Height, Fitness, etc), mental attributes and require college education of a certain level before even talking to a recruit.

I have been to countries where joining the Police force was kind of a last option when no other job was available, not saying that this is true for the states.
But I have seen/experienced both sides and their impact on the living conditions.

As I said just my opinion.

[Watchman]

I understand you point, and agree that LEO's should be held to a higher standard on the basis of their standing as peace officers alone.

I wasn't "excusing" the troopers in that story, just lending some perspective. Law enforcement work isn't as cut-and-dried as those of us home watching the news care to believe it is.

Like I said, did those troopers have any idea how old that kid was during the pursuit, and were they 100% positive that he wasn't armed?

It's easy to know where to point the finger after the smoke clears.

[joedoe]

I don't think the article really gives us enough information to form a fair judgement on what happened. For example, were the two officers together in the pursuit, or had they split up? If they were together, how far apart were they? Did the officers have constant visual contact with the boy through the pursuit?

Not enough info.

[Laughing Cow]

What worries me is the following:

Curry's gun fired as he climbed over a fence

His partner naturally reacted by assuming that they are under attack.

But as he takes aim he should see the "criminals" hands (i.e. not holding a weapon) and that he is turned away from him. i.e. not posing an immediate threat at that moment.

Like you said nothing is cut-and-dried, but in recent years the incidents/fatal mishaps seem to be on the increase.

But an office should never have a Gun misfire/accidetnal disrcharge during a pursuit as this is endangerment of the public.
As so often I think that the blame is directed at the wrong person.

And that is alarming to me.

[Watchman]

I agree joedoe - not enough info.

Besides, if you read the article correctly, they were exonerated by a coroner's jury. That means the coroner's office officially says that the troopers story jibes with the physical evidence.

That doesn't mean the troopers are out of trouble yet.

[joedoe]

I agree that the negligent discharge is a worry.

The question in my mind is how close the officers were together during the pursuit. If the officers were right next to each other and the gun discharged, I would have thought you could tell that the shot came from right next to you.

But then again, I have no experience with firearms so I really don't know what I am talking about.

[Laughing Cow]

Rogue.

It depends on the surrounding, in a build-up are like downtown it is harder to indentify source of a shot.

Suburbs or residential area is a bit easier, but I doubt that the Cops would have been that far apart either way (like down 1 street or at the next building/house).

But I reckon they would have been seperated by a few yards or so.

[fa_jing]

If he's running from you, you have not yet seen a weapon, and you hear a shot, IMO you are not justified in shooting the person running from you. What if it is someone else shooting? Shouldn't you try to ascertain whether or not the person has a weapon, seeing that before you saw none? Wouldn't you shout to your partner who you think's been shot? Wouldn't you be looking around to see if there was another shooter?

The truth is, there is some scenario - say the kid was obstructed from view when the shot went off, then suddenly came back into view - there's some way that it's possible that this was a legitimate mistake. But my opinion is that this is unlikely. My opinion is that in a lot of these cases, the officer panicks and fires. How can we know? This is one of the flaws of the legal system - the officers present are going to testify about their own and each other's conduct. So there is a potential for abuse.

Again, we often hear of cops shooting unarmed men. The only time that the police are called to task is when they do something egregious - like sodomizing an immigrant with a toilet plunger. I ask you all, have you ever heard of a case where they came out and said, this police officer made a mistake and didn't follow procedure and shot this unarmed man? 'Cause I sure haven't heard of this.

[joedoe]

Hey, our cops get abused for shooting an armed man! We had a case a few years ago where a crack-head wielding a knife walked 6 policemen 50 metres up a beach while they had guns drawn and warned him to put the knife down. Eventually they ran out of room and he lunged at one of the officers. He was shot dead.

Then, unbelieveably there was public debate over the officer's handling of the situation. Sheesh.

[rogue]

Please read

[joedoe]

Thanks rogue. Interesting read.

Based on the points of law presented in that article, the fact that the boy was shot in the back does not look good for the officer in question does it?

[Black Jack]

Everyone's a victim these days. It wouldn't be due to the lack of parenting skills on the families part now would it.

What's not interesting is the standard race card that has been barfed up by the family attorney, Joel Sansone, who believes that race may of played a role in the shooting, as the criminal was black and the cop was white.

I wonder if it ever crossed there mind that what played a role in the shooting was a car-thief hauling ass from the cops.

[red5angel]

I think LEO's ARE held to much higher standards. These guys face situations like this all the time and while you may think that this sort of thing happens all the time, if you compare these sorts of incidents with say, the number of times LEO's face a dangerous situation but never fire their gun, I think things come into perspective a little more.
As for ascertaining whether he had a gun or not, would you? After having been through that whole chase with a person who has proven themselves to be a danger to themselves and others, and then you hear a gun shot, would you pause to see where the shot came from? How about if you partner jumping the fence goes down face first and cries out?