Northern Shaolin and kicking

[Rolling Elbow]

So you quit tae-kwondo because of teh "stupid" belt system and that is all? well you obviously have not lost their point of view..if you are looking for tae-kwondo without the belts and trying to find it in another system..you will be dissapointed. Furthermore, you will miss out on the true lessons which will lead you to see why tae-kwondo is such a poor combat/street system.

Yes i know, before everyone rants and raves...jimmy woo of such and such a place in incredible...that is because he is a master and has taken hapkido as well or hwrang do...niot just tae-kwondo alone. TKD remains the most unrealistic system there is out there. The hands are forgotten and flashy snap kicks and showmanship becomes reality. Do you know how easy a kick from most people is to catch? You get guys in there for 4-5 years and they are still too slow to kick with power. TKD is a joke, if you get an elbow or a fist on an incoming leg, i guarantee you they will think twice about trying it again.

You are far better off where you are..you will actually learn to fight. TKD cannot be dragged through the mud enough in both Canada and the United States..it is pure and utter crap. Why anyone would buy into the hype and competitions is beyond me. Even watching the Olympic matches...i could see them getting thir heads knowcked off trying some of those kicks...the part you don't see is where the fight goes to the ground and the TKD guy gets fed elbows....thank god for the wistles and the poomsie

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[NorthernShaolin]

Generally you can kick as high as you want because not everyone is built the same. Beginners attempt to kick high but can't because of their tight leg muscles. In demonstration and for stretching purposes, intermidiate and advance students will kick high but for fighting the high kicks are not recommonded unless their skill level and their abilities are at a very high level.

You should do your kicks according to the way the set dictates because the sets that you will learn later on will contain higher kicks.

[YoungForest]

Listen, you were obviously beatin up but a TKD artist (roaring elbow), and that's why you keep bashing it in. The system is used to develop your kicking skills and your speed. That's all, if you want to bash anything, bash in Karate...

Taekwon-do does have a lot of flaws but its not meant for punches, or knees, or elbows or whatever the hell you use to fight.

Secondly, no one uses their martial art techniques to actually fight in real life.

A) You won't punch someone and go into your bow stance..

B) You won't hope for a left hook so you can do your best technique..

there are more reasons,

TKD is just there to build your kicking skills....nothing else...increase power, speed and quickness....

[Valraven]

Kicking at the high line is as usefull as any other fighting skill, given the context.
(Blackjack, I would think that you would be more "JKD" minded)
Many real fights have been ended by good kick to the face or head.
TKD (northern kung fu, Savate, Muay Thai) does an excellent job in teaching the merits of this combat skill.
If you were a kicker, and you lost a fight, that's
on you. You can't blame kicking.
When a wrestler losses to a boxer is that wrestling's fault. Of course not.
Know what to do and when to do it. That is your
main concern as a martial artist.
Bashing a style just shows the huge gaps in your
fighting arsenal.
Valrave

[dwid]

I'm not arguing for one or the other, first of all. Personally, I have no use for high kicks because I'm short and broad, and not built for effectively delivering them (thanks to the short legs, though, I can deliver some mean abdomenal kicks even at very close range). Anyway, I was watching a UFC fight where this guy was getting beat six ways from sunday by a dude about 50 pounds heavier than he was. Somehow, he managed to remain standing and the fight went into overtime. He managed to get a good forearm shot to the big guy's face, and suddenly the dude wasn't hitting with the same accuracy. Next (I watched this several times in slow motion it was so good) the smaller guy throws a feint, which was obviously so by the fact he fanned his fingers out at the end (it was just to get the guy's attention and it worked). While he threw the feint he chambered his right leg, and when the guy went for the block he hammered the side of his head with a beautiful roundhouse. The dude fell against the fence with this total spaced-out look. He didn't know what hit him, but he sure as hell wasn't getting up. Anyway, that's just one situation, but it shows a properly delivered high kick can have a place in some situations. Like I said though, I personally don't like 'em. Fortunately, there aren't any high kicks in Bagua.

Just my two cents...

[Black Jack]

I am being practical with my well-being.

I am not saying that high-line kicks can not have merit but in a streetfight it is much safer and much better to keep your kicks low-line.

To me and many others that I know, high-line kicks do not fit in with the "absorb what is usefull" part of the experssion.

Its good commonsense in a streetfight to keep your kicks below waist level. I do not see how these fancy and offbalance high-line moves could ever be considered and taught as extremely effective.

In a enviroment outside of the training hall, when the stress hits and you are in a much different setting, these moves can get you beat up. The movements are telegraphic, they break up mobility and balance as well as destroy a much needed solid foundation.

Not only the above mentioned factors, but high-line kicks are tools which take a lot of extra conditioning and specific attributes to be considered effective and even then they are IMO still in serious doubt.

Low-line kicks do not need to be kept up in this way, the percentages for faliure of the attack are not as high and you still keep the above mentioned abilities of mobility, balance and foundation in check as well as a much more destructive tool in terms of damage and less telegraphic movement.

As for the Savate fighters and Thai Boxers you mentioned. Those fights are for "sport" and not for "real life". They have a safety net incase they fall and lose there balance or get trapped or thrown.

In a sport you do not have to worry about the other party trying to eye gouge you or bite you when you get all wrapped up, you dont have to worry about multiple attackers coming to help out there buddy, there is no fear of hidden blades or weapons he can pick up and hit you with once you get tossed onto the very hard cement littered with bits of broken bottle and rock.

If you watch experianced Savate players "self derfense spar" agaisnt one another, you will witness very few serious kicks above the waist level, its like a chest match, fencing with the feet and can often times when you see two experianced fighters go at it, look almost boring when compared to a Thai fight.

From Savate & Thai I use there painfull and destructive low-line kicks as well as Savates nice feints, Panajackman is also another art which I incorporate which uses very brutal low-line kicks and stomps that can be used in conjunction with my hand skills at close range.

I would say that the absence of high-kicks in ones toolbox is considered realistic and practical and never a loss.

I also never bashed anyones style.

Regards

[This message was edited by Black Jack on 11-02-00 at 11:09 AM.]

[JWTAYLOR]

I'm not in any way Northern Shaolin, but what the hell, I'll chime in anyway.

I have been in too many street fights, but I have NEVER thrown a kick in them. It never came up.

I have only seen one kick thrown effectively in a street fight. Almost every time I've ever seen a kick thrown it missed or was innefective. The one kick I did see do some damage was a back kick thrown by a Hopkido stylist friend of mine. It broke the other guy's hip. (Really horrible sound. It sounded kind of like one of the boards in a couch breaking.)

Big lessons I've learned here. One, don't kick unless you know it will do serious damage. And two, kicks can do serious damage.

JW

[Jaguar Wong]

dwid, I think you're talking about the Mark Coleman vs Pete Williams fight. Williams used the same strategy that Maurice Smith used to beat Coleman, stop the submission and ground and pound, and bring the fight to standing. The only difference is Petey scored the KO instead of just the decision.

One thing you have to remember with that fight, though. That kick was in overtime, which meant they were going at it for a while. Plus Pete had to set up that shot. He didn't just throw it out (like the Yvel vs Goodridge fight [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] ). It worked, but like every one else said, there's a time and place for everything [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Valraven, I wish there was a thumbs up icon here. Oh wait .... Hope that works

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com

[LEGEND]

I had the privilidge of sparring several NORTHERN SHAOLIN guys...they do kick high!
I was very impressed with these guys...I myself am not a great standup fighter...I use boxing( need to go to a school for 6 months to a year ) and THAI BOXING standup...but those guys were very accurate with their techs. I was very impressive with the combos...and interception method!!!

A

[Tvebak]

I have a friend who teaches "Classcal" Taekwondo. He uses his legs in ways that i can only dream about, very effective. Most of the kicks are low, many are used after a grab. Many off them are aimed accuretly at targets on the arms, such as biceps, armpit or fingers. also he uses a lot of limbdestruktions with the arms.
In his school he never teaches, because nobody wants to learn. All that peoble wants is the fancy bull****.

[Rolling Elbow]

How did you guess it Jigja...some pimple faced 13 year old moron with a 3 degree black belt in TKD handed me my ass on a plate...and i have suffered numerous defeats by gangs of TKD yellow belts out to cause trouble in the park on Sunday mornings...

Are you just an idiot, or are your views based on the fact that your voice has not yet cracked? "Roaring Elbow" has seen many blackbelt products from TKD schools. Years of kicking pads and "tap" competitions (point sparring) has decreased their power to 0%..they tap and slap- not hit!

Good okinawan Karate would eat you alive my friend..and ninjutsu, don't make me laugh. Anyone who knows what they are doing in this art would let you throw about two kicks before they took your balance or smashed your limbs. Take off the shin pads,gloves,helmet, and foot pads- this is reality, not the jumping spinning back kick.

If TKD is not meant for punches, kicks, elbows, kness- WHAT THE HELL GOOD IS IT TO ANYBODY MAN? Do you really believe your kicks are faster than my hands? you are not superfoot Bill Wallace or Benny the Jet, and they used their hands too. Is TKD a fighting system or just an intermediate step to teaching you how to kick? Do it on your own..don't come here and complain to people who practice real arts that their art is lacking in unrealistic bull**** flamboyant kicks...do you know how many TKD guys have come off the street and asked to see and spar full contact against our instructors? Many..do you know how many lasted more than 2 minutes? NONE. And this is the best part;

A) You won't punch someone and go into your bow stance..

But you may find your self in a transitory state- going through the bow stance where you are powerful and very much able to take a low shot at someone or cut his target off for a split second.

B) You won't hope for a left hook so you can do your best technique..

I don't have a "best" technique..i have concepts and my entire body to use as a weapon..I don't care what i hit with. It can be my shoulder, my hip, my head, or my elbow...have you ever felt any of these things bare knuckle and without a chest protector?..keep bouncing and dancing on your tippy toes...your legs will be cut down so quickly by you Shaolin training partners that you'll learn the hard way why you should not stay in a style that you do not respect.

If you want to practice kicking..do so on your own time..don't waste your sifu's time with stupid expectations and wishes..you obviously do not want to learn how to fight, you want to learn how to LOOK like you can fight.

If you feel TKD is that superior, why don't you ask your sifu to go one on one so that he can show why it is not. I have seen some real idiots on here..but man, you really take the cake.


:eek

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[DrunkenMonkey]

Tis sometimes true that some Northern Shaolin instructors do not stress higher kicks to the head or neck or upper chest. Usually its not because we don't like higher kicks, but because the instructor has bad experiences with people complaining about stressed muscles etc. It is also true that in many techniques that Northern Shaolin teaches, the form of the body is kept as tight as possibly, reducing openings to attack and increasing power.

To me, it is hard for me to believe that Northern Shaolin does not teach a wide variety of kicks, seeing as whenever I talk to people who are in Northern Shaolin or have seen it, they say that its kicks are very efficient and powerful and flexible. Dunno.

Underaged Drunken Monkey

[YoungForest]

You must be the most ignorant person i've ever met.
You are an idiot. As simple as that. I don't know where you have seen teakwon-do fighters but you're giving me the impression that all your TKD Fighters suck an ass where you live.

There are different styles of taekwondo and your idiot ass has been watching too many WTF fights.

let me go over what the difference are for you so you would get a better idea.

ITF (international taekwondo federation) produces fighters. You don't see their competitions on TV cause its not a sport. The point in ITF is to kick higher then the belt and to basically hit with full force.

Good luck magically blocking a 400 pound turning kick or an 400 pound axe kick coming to your face.

WTF (world taekwondo federation) produces athletes.
what you see on tv is just tapin the sides of the body or the face to get points. That is more on the sports side of the art. They produce speed and quickness..NOT POWER

[Mo Ying]

Bak Sil-lum or northrn shaolin teachs to extend the limbs as far as possible (hence high kicks) to develop the potential of the student, but in combat, kicks are to low targets so as not to expose oneself to easy counterattacks.

[Rolling Elbow]

I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this..I think you are talking out of your ass and have a very closed mind..you obviously do not understand martial arts or kung fu from a tactical point of view..I could care less if the ITF or WTF guys kick for power..bottom line, they are still only kickers, someone who can fight in all the other ranges has more chance of survival in real combat..given the situation, wher he may end up etc.. Increase your efficiency in all ranges and you increase your odds of walking away from a fight. TKD can be "effective" when practiced by someone who possesses the physical skill and experience to make it such. Furthermore, these effectife TKD guys know how to use their hands too...they are not fools like you and think that their feet alone will save their asses.

I think that you are probably the bigger idiot here because you have chosen to study a system without the willingness to empty your cup so that it may be refilled with more knowledge and a deeper understanding of body mechanics and combat efficiency. You are unable to see past TKD and are looking for nothing more than a cheaper way to acheive the same means....you will not. I doubt very much you have the power and speed that the effective TKD guys have.., the good thing about other arts is that you do not necesarily need to be fast or powerful...just understand how to control space, lead an opponent out of his comfort zone, and strike to take balance...you will learn none of this in TKD. Go kick air and watch your shadow...that is about all your opinions and complaints are worth in my opinion [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..