Northern Shaolin and kicking

[YoungForest]

Once again, I beleive you received sever beatings from a TKD artist.

[Rolling Elbow]

Nice try Jig"Jerk", you will not get the "Roaring" elbow to roar on this one, I won't waste a further word on you..

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Dragon Warrior]

I am a Northern Shaolin stylist. We train both low and high leg kicks. If you cant do one or the other than you are not a complete martial artist. It is obvious that both can be useful in certain situations. I've landed both high and low kicks. Anyone who says either one is not useful is just ignorent, and probably cant throw a high kick or an effective low one.

Temptation tempts my victim to proceed,
forward ignorence wouldn't allow retreat,
you'd rather pursue death than admit defeat (Masta Killa: Wu Tang Clan)

Chris V.

[Arioch7]

LOL! I like this one. I train in Northern Longfist and I see high kicks all the time. I would love to see a TKD'er perform a proper tornado kick, where the kicking foot hits the ground first. Someday, maybe...

Also, WTF TKD'er do wear pads but they are going FULL contact, not "point sparring" A small point, but I figured I would bring it up.

Ok, I have experience with TKD and I have to honestly say that a modern TKD practioner is usually NOT a good fighter. They are good TKD "sport" fighters, but... not much else. As Rolling Elbow mentioned, the good TKD fighters go outside the system to get additional skills and add versatility to thier arsenals.

TKD has its uses, but to be honest with the forum, I am glad I am no longer taking it

[Jimbo]

For me personally, the ability to high kick is just to have another physical skill. Way back when I was a kid in karate my specialty was flexibility and kicking. Even back then, though, I never considered using a kick above the groin or solar plexus level in a fight, because I'd seen too many real fights where some "martial arts" guy tried a high kick (sometimes very decent high kicks) and got their leg grabbed and they got slammed down.

Nowadays I emphasize a more complete training approach, with more emphasis on hand blows, footwork, and low to mid-area kicks. I still stretch and can still do the high kicks but do so only for flexibility/balance training now, and rarely do them anymore.

There are indeed guys that can make kicks at any target work. They are NOT the majority. Even Hee Ill Cho, one of the best TKD masters and a super kicker, claims that as he ages, his kicks have deteriorated much faster than his hand techniques (which he's also very good at using). And I've found it's true myself.
Jim

[8stepsifu]

I'm not trying to take sides here, but you said that the TKD fighters that Rollingelbow has seen must have sucked. Well....the TKD fighters that anyone has seen sucked. What other style produces blackbelts that any golfer could take out? Thats just my experince...and Rolling Elbows and countless others on this forum and others. I used to dance around how I felt about TKD, but I have to admit that I don't think tkd is worth the time or money. I think it gives people a false sense of security and it gives martial arts a bad name. I saw the U.S. championship for tkd on ESPN 2. They were were all serious and shouting. It was sad. One guy finally took an axe kick to the shoulder and gave up. His lips weren't white! He wasn't shaking! He had a will of jello and he was one of the best in the country! I can honestly say that I could have taken both of these geeks out and I can't say the same about two high wrestlers or even basketball players. Its not cuz I'm so good, its because they were so bad.
Because there are so many TKD practioners like them that I feel genuinely insulted when people think that I do TKD,
I guarantee that everyone bashing TKD has spent years doing it or has fought lots of tkd blackbelts expecting a good fight only to be disapointed.

After you beat the snot out of them they say, "no grappling" the after some more they say, "no throwing or joint locks, then Its, "No close range, lets just do long range fighting", Then you beat them playing their own game. Then they get too tired and then they talk about stagegy and tend to some injury that you gave them. You then massage it out and let them borrow some Jow before they go home.

Sound familiar

8Step Sifu

[Arioch7]

So, your a big fan? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I dont know if I would be THAT harsh. I agree with the post but I have known quite a few hard hitting TKD'ers. I would be disgusted if I saw the display that you witnessed on ESPN2. I have seen a couple incidents like the one you had described but my school was not like that. I have seen people quit after having thier cups cracked in half by an errant kick.

I have heard a lot about McDojangs springing up all over the place. My belief is that this is probably to blame for the decline in quality TKD training. WE never point sparred but practiced take downs and semi-contact when we were not training full contact with bodypads. I have been struck square in the face by roundhouse kicks(With a mask and without.) more times then I care to count. In informal sessions it was free style so I have also been punched more times as well.

I have helped train fighters in competetions and they were not quitters. When we were training, we had some pretty brutal rules that some may think went contrary to the spirit of fair play. We would hit hard and fast, attempting to inflict as much pain as possible to demoralize the opponnent. When people are frightened and in pain, they lose focus. You might beat any of the fighters I have trained with but they sure as hell would not have quit after an axe kick. I dont quit unless I am not conscious or I am physically unable to go on. My partners felt much the same way. It is what the Koreans call "Indomitable Spirit.".

I have known fighters that would kick you HARD in the face as the bell rang. Sure, he would lose a half a point(Sometimes a full point depending on the judge.), but the other fighter was usually knocked on his ass and didn't have much of an edge after that. Dishonorable, but I am trying tio give you an idea of the persons mindset. In other words, he is not a pushover, but a dirty, hard hitting fighter who would do everything to beat you in a sparring session. An average informal session would be someone trying thier ****edest to kick me in the face. Easy, you might think. LOL, not when you are facing someone that can throw about two kicks a second and keeps coming, coming, coming... true, I can punch a lot faster then I kick. However, I kick FAST, very fast.

To continue with my TKD tale, I also developed strategies to fight in TKD competitions that focused on TKD's weaknesses. The person that brought up punching or striking the kicking leg was dead on. I have seen peoples insteps severely damaged due to hitting an elbow. Kicks are relatively easy to block and you can just let high kickers wear themselves out and then... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] This all applies to competition though so perhaps it is not applicable.

It is my belief that TKD is an OK long range fighting form and a valuable tool to increase skill with the feet. It can develop awful habits but I have met some **** good fighters that were TKD people so I dont like to issue blanket statements calling them all wimps... which if you think about it is what you have called me.

I know it seems like I am riding both sides of the fence but I think this long-winded post helped clarify my views on the subject.

[Braden]

High kicks bad. Kicking is for knees and shins.

Knees though... knees are good.

[8stepsifu]

You know as well as I that 90 percent of the TKD schools suck. I'm glad that your school is different. It sounds more traditional from what I understand about TKD.

8Step Sifu

[YoungForest]

high kicks are good!
only if you know how to kick...
if anyone watches K-1, you'll know what i mean by kicking....

especially a guy named Andy Hug (R.I.P.)

when was the last time u saw someone blocking an axe kick coming down on your nose? watch some k-1 tapes and watch Andy work the guys with high kicks....

80 percent of the people who kick high aren't trained right to kick high...
Trust me, i know, i've been to many many many tournaments and watched many on tapes and visited many TKD schoools....most of them suck....they're getting tought by a 15 year old 3 degree black belt...

Does that mean anything to you when i say belt systems don't mean ****...

but the 20 percent who know how to kick......good luck

[Arioch7]

Thanks, I agree with you 8step, I think that most (Read: 95%) schools suck, and the MA's I trained with were fighters first and TKD'ers second.

I just wanted to post that TKD is not COMPLETELY worthless... as a style it is, as a tool it is not.

Dig? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: I am not training with Korean stylists now, I train specifically in Longfist and grappling(Shuai Jhuai.) I think Chinese styles are FAR superior and a hell of a lot more versatile. I just had to give some respect to the style I practiced for years. Personally, I would not bother with a TKD school now.

[This message was edited by Arioch7 on 11-06-00 at 10:51 PM.]

[Rolling Elbow]

When is Jigja going to realize that 90% of the population and those who study martial arts.., do not have the speed of K1 kickboxers!! At best we would look like amateur kickboxers and too many of those guys while not slow..can be read by an experienced enough fighter..low kicks on the other hand, are far harder to block and see..

He is right, good kicker sin TKD can kick, but most people are not good kickers, so give them somehting else to work with. I still don't understand why he is studying kungfu if his heart is set in TKD?

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Ben Gash]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I have used high kicks and jumping kicks for real. I didn't get killed, I wasn't suckered by an easy counter, I wasn't tackled and forced to submit, and I only landed on my ass once (and it didn't matter, 'cause so did he). I've also used punches, joint locks and throws.
I don't go out there to kick people, it's just that sometimes the opening's there, and the timing's right.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[Black Jack]

Keep doing what you are doing and sooner or later it will bite you on the ass.

The fact that you landed on your kester should have taught you a vauluble lesson.

It sounds like you have fought agaisnt a couple of dancing clowns. When you meet up with a serious streetfighter, your high kicks will get you a quick trip to the hospital, but don't take my word for it, keep throwing those pretty kicks and see where it lands you. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Regards

[YoungForest]

my heart is not set on TKD but i don't understand why in my shaolin school, ALL of our kicks are low or to the mid section.

Now you can give me 101 reasons why low kicks are better but that just proves how limited you are...

All I wanted to know is that how many other schools ONLY kick low..