Skeptics on TCM

[Former castleva]

At first,I hope I did not offend you since that was not the case.If I did,I apologize just in case.I won´t be commenting on this issue that much anymore for reasons above but what I meant by that comment is that if I got that right,you are basically putting minority medicine over conventional treatment and saying it is " a few thousands years behind" which is some of the most horrid stuff I´ve heard.
Without it,we would be blowing air into our wounds (Which is,besides those who choose to,the case in underdeveloped regions of earth)
I´m open for decent alternative care but we have to be realistic with this.
On personal level,I might end up studying tcm someday but I know where I´m going to go if I´ll ever be to pursue a career in neurology and so on...

Thanks for replies btw.

[HuangKaiVun]

Sorry Former castleva, but the 21st century Western physician in America often does NOT share your view.

These professionals have a deep respect for what nonWestern medical practitioners can do. They ought to - it's in their Western medical school training.

Accupuncture DOES work. In China, they've refined it to the point where they can use accupuncture in place of chemically induced anesthesia. I know a few people who've undergone that treatment and done really well with it after - people who were skeptical at first but changed their tune after talking to their doctors DURING their surgery.

The doctors who work with my students are impressed at how much Eastern medicine can help them. For example, I've been prescribing the use of soybeans for a particular patient of mine. Lo and behold, he had just gone to a conference studying the effects of soybeans on certain disorders. He found out that which the Chinese knew for centuries: that soybeans have a calming effect on the human physiology.

Also, another student was taken completely off his hypertensive medication by his doctor after training with me. The weight loss he experienced by training kung fu helped reduce his weight such that his renal system could function properly. I managed to do in the span of a month what thousands of dollars of renal medications could not.

Like it or not, many (not all) of these seemingly "bizarre" treatments stand up in the most rigid scientific inquiry, even those of double blinding and clinical trials. No amount of skepticism about those methods can change the reality of their efficacy.

In many ways, modern medicine IS a few thousand years behind various forms of alternative therapy - and vice versa. The two methods complement each other.

[cha kuen]

Hungviakuan,

Thanks for the post. I felt like I was the only one backing up TCM here. And on a site note TCM is not just accupunture, it's also bonesetting, tuina and chi kung.

Also I remember talking to an accunpunture lady and she said that the hardest thing in school is just throwing away anything that you knew previously about heailng and injuries so that you get how chinese medicine works.

Empty your cup. My point is that western medicine can look at and see the effects of chinese medicine all they want, but they will never get how it works becuase they have been through so much training in western medicine. Unless they are ready to throw away everything that they have learned and re-learn everything from the TCM approach, they will never get how TCM works.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by cha kuen
It is pointless to argue to MD's about chinese medicine because the approach is entirely different. MD's will have no clue if you talk about chi and meridians. They are never taught any of these concepts in school.

The only way to prove or argue with MD's is to prove it. Take a patient wtih a loewr back problem. Let the MD guy to his thing , xray and recommend situps and stretches.

After that, let the chinese doctor go at it for like 3 times and then y ou'll have your answer. Accunpunture is starting to be accepted on some insurance plans and since its arrival in the 70's , has done quite well.

In my world, you'd simply take an adequately-sized set of patients with reasonably identical symptoms. You'd put them through their treatment without notifying them or the health care worker that they're being monitored and then compare the results.

Oh well, feel free to stone the heretic now.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Accupuncture DOES work. In China, they've refined it to the point where they can use accupuncture in place of chemically induced anesthesia.

Ok, I'll bite. Out of 100, say, appendectomies in China. How many are performed with acupuncture and how many with a general anesthetic (FWIW, they may even use spinal blocks for something as routine as an appendectomy).

Also, another student was taken completely off his hypertensive medication by his doctor after training with me. The weight loss he experienced by training kung fu helped reduce his weight such that his renal system could function properly. I managed to do in the span of a month what thousands of dollars of renal medications could not.

This is disingenuous since I'd bet there's not a single GP in the US who wouldn't push someone who's overweight and diagnosed with hypertension to exercise.

And in other news, my dentist says I should brush my teeth twice daily.

Like it or not, many (not all) of these seemingly "bizarre" treatments stand up in the most rigid scientific inquiry, even those of double blinding and clinical trials. No amount of skepticism about those methods can change the reality of their efficacy.

When you say many, I'd be curious what you mean by that. In absolute or percentage terms?

I've done literature searches on these topics before and things like, say, qigong don't have therapeutic value beyond that of regular exercise.

I'm one of those people who's a true believer wannabe. I'd like to see alternative medicine therapies be successful. However, an honest look at the research reveals a scantily-clad emperor.

Contrast this with a procedure I had done 9 months ago. Since it had been recently FDA-approved, I was able to read the *entire discussion* at the FDA about the treatment's efficacy. Likewise, I was able to read numerous papers written by physicians performing the procedure. These papers contained information on mortality, morbidity, and success rates. Furthermore, I was able to read studies comparing this treatment with the existing treatment--life-long anti-coagulation--to make an informed decision.

Now, the cynical will say, "but no pharmaceutical company will fund the study." And I'll call horses***. Since I take 325mg of aspirin daily, I know for a fact that there have been and continue to be numerous studies on the efficacy of the lowly aspirin. Aspirin is essentially a refined herb.

Overall, there are far too many mountebanks in alternative medicine. Whether they're chiroquacks or people selling you emu oil, they're too many that are fraudy, fraud, frauds.

[Vapour]

In Japan, Chinese herbal medicine are clinically tested and approved by the government and adiministered in hospital and clinic nationwide. There are even used for treatment for AIDS patient if some of them develop sever reaction to conventional ****tail treatment.

As of acupuncture, there is a guy who patented a way to paralyse fish. As you know we consume great amount of fish so to transport fish alive while not taking up so much space was a great way to save the cost so he made lot of money. His company specialise in patenting acupuncture point for different fish.

As far as I know, in the West, one must identify exact chemcial compound which is admininstered to the patient. (correct me if I'm wrong on this.) Often TCM use combination of natural ingredients so it is not so easy to go through the process of clinical testing process. However, if you search research from Japan/Korea/China, clinical testing results for Chinese herbal medicine are published in medical journals. Obviously these journals do not endorse qi/ki theory.

[cha kuen]

If you say there are many quacks in chinese medicine, there are just as many in western medicine and I'll even go as far to say that some of the non-quacks in MD are just as uneffective as the quacks.

Accpunture is accepted on some insurance programs and there are boards that provide a license to practice it. That alone should tell people that it's good stuff.

Looking at data and tests won't help you see what chinese medicine is or does. Again, that's your idea of healing which will set you back if you went to a TCM school to learn.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by cha kuen
If you say there are many quacks in chinese medicine, there are just as many in western medicine and I'll even go as far to say that some of the non-quacks in MD are just as uneffective as the quacks.

I'll have to take your word for it. Or not.

Remember we're trying to reasonably adult here.

Accpunture is accepted on some insurance programs and there are boards that provide a license to practice it. That alone should tell people that it's good stuff.

In my experience, it's specifically been shown effective for treatment of chronic pain. Interesting in its own right, but hardly earth-shattering stuff.

Looking at data and tests won't help you see what chinese medicine is or does. Again, that's your idea of healing which will set you back if you went to a TCM school to learn.

In honor of your wisdom, I just created a signature featuring your quote. No worries mate, the quote'll be appropriately attributed.

[Former castleva]

Thanks for posting,recently returned to the board.

[HuangKaiVun]

Like it or not, fragbot, the anecdotes I've mentioned about hypertension and accupuncture are REAL.

Besides, not all Western medical science works for everything. They're learning all the time themselves.

I need not answer your appendectomy question because there's enough stuff going on both ways in China for that to be seen. Don't believe me? GO THERE. SEE the people who've done well after having accupuncture as their anesthesia.

There are a ton of people who've gotten better because of what Eastern medicine has done.

No amount of disbelief on your part will change that - and many a Western medical physician would agree.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Like it or not, fragbot, the anecdotes I've mentioned about hypertension and accupuncture are REAL.[/B]

What is it about TCM discussions that engender postings wholly lacking in critical thought?

Anyhow, I had hoped I wouldn't need to be so explicit. I don't doubt your student was able to control his blood pressure since that's a well-documented side-effect of exercise.

It's not the healing effect of Chinese medicine. It's simply the healing effect of exercise. Or is walking to the grocery now TCM as well?

The classic example is the oft-referenced study about TJQ in the nursing home leading to a reduction in the number of falls. While this is nice in its own right, it says nothing about the health benefits of TJQ. Unless you'd posit that TJQ provides a greater benefit than *any type* of core training that trains the pro-prioceptive reflex.

Besides, not all Western medical science works for everything. They're learning all the time themselves.

Tomorrow morning the sun will rise.

What do my previous statement and yours have in common?

I need not answer your appendectomy question because there's enough stuff going on both ways in China for that to be seen. Don't believe me? GO THERE. SEE the people who've done well after having accupuncture as their anesthesia.

Last time I looked at this topic, accupuncture was *not* commonly used for routine surgery even in China. While this may be due somewhat to a bias towards modern medicine, it also has to do with the fact that accupuncture works inconsistently across a population.

There are a ton of people who've gotten better because of what Eastern medicine has done.

Tomorrow evening the sun will set.

Again, what do our statements have in common?

No amount of disbelief on your part will change that - and many a Western medical physician would agree. [/B]

Your use of the word belief is particularly appropriate in a discussion of TCM.

Overall, like most people with whom I've had this discussion, you respond with a flinging knee without understanding what I find lacking in alternative medicine.

It's not that I think it works or not. I have no idea if it does or not, but its efficacy is **** near impossible to determine.

Furthermore, on the topic of alternative medicine in general, I find the following things problematic about it:

1) well-done research on its efficacy and side effects ("but herbs are safe because they're natural" --> bulls***) is extremely difficult to find.
2) its practitioners often seem offended by the whole idea of proving the efficacy of their methods. This is particularly strange since if I were an alternative health practitioner I'd be very excited to have research done on my methods. Instead, they'll fall back on the "we've been doing this for years" argument. Well, with an attitude like that, it's no wonder they're still providing 18th century medical care.
3) discussing the topic with its adherents is like visiting a old time southern revival. "Praise Jesus Echinacea," "Hallelujah Qigong," and "Arnica Amen" are all here with us today.

[Vapour]

Hmmm, didn't I comment somewhere in this thread that in the East especially in Japan and Korea and small extent China, the governments fund clinical testing of TCM especially its herbal medicine. And these results are published in proper medical journal. You can get prescrption of herbal medicine from your G.P.

[Former castleva]

Thanks for posting.

"Hmmm, didn't I comment somewhere in this thread that in the East especially in Japan and Korea and small extent China, the governments fund clinical testing of TCM especially its herbal medicine. And these results are published in proper medical journal. You can get prescrption of herbal medicine from your G.P."
Yes.I have the idea that herbal drugs are often handed out pretty much over-the-counter too.

"Last time I looked at this topic, accupuncture was *not* commonly used for routine surgery even in China. While this may be due somewhat to a bias towards modern medicine, it also has to do with the fact that accupuncture works inconsistently across a population."
Yeah.
One shocking and maybe well-known example was showing how acupuncture works as anesthesia for neurosurgery.
However,this particular case proved to be faking and let´s say the hands of anesthesiology were floating around.

[HuangKaiVun]

fragbot and former castleva, you uneducated laymen should go to Western medical school and see how much Eastern therapies are accepted.

You guys would be LAUGHED OUT of Western medical schools.

This discussion is nothing but a flame war against Chinese medicine.

[Former castleva]

"This discussion is nothing but a flame war against Chinese medicine."


"You guys would be LAUGHED OUT of Western medical schools."




Just take it easy,calm down.