Skeptics on TCM

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Pilgrim
With acupuncture no has come up with a way to make a placbo acupuncture needle. One that feels like it's going in the skin but really isn't, one that has a sensation of chi but not really be chi. Most people when they see a needle coming at them think there's a needle coming at me therefore it's hard if not impossible to have a control. ( Search the web, in Germany as i recall, they have attempted to make a palcebo acupuncture needle).

It's interesting they're trying to create an accupuncture placebo. It's an important step in the right direction.

A practioner of acupuncture will place great importance on the exact location of the acupucnture point in order for acu to work, with the idea if throwing in a needle anywhere in the body-not in a location that has results- the idea of palcebo negates the reason why acu works. Points are exact and must me located exactly hence no results. With a placebo- an untrainned person placing needles in incorrect locations- acu won't work to begin with. Research this concept by looking in Journal of Substance Abuse-lots odf debate on point location, placebo effect,stimulation of vagus nerve fiddle-faddle.

Thanks for the reference. I am confused about something you said--with a placebo, the accupuncture shouldn't work. Isn't this the idea of a placebo?

With herbs, double blind is hard if not impossible due to the nature of herbs. Where are you going to come up with a material that looks like ginseng tastes like ginseng but isn't ginseng.

For some things (eg dit da jow*), it might be rather difficult. However, for herbs taken as a tea or tincture, there's absolutely no reason the flavor/odor couldn't be masked of, if encapsulated in gelatin, made a non-issue altogether.

*FWIW, I'd like to see any studies of any type on dit da jow. I've seem many anecdotes about how it's the miracle cure for bruising or soft-tissue injuries. However, I've also heard the same for arnica (useless crap from what I can tell), bromelain (extract from pineapple; appears to work but increases your clotting time), and papain (extract from papaya; same drawback as bromelain).

Then giving ginseng to evryone in the two groups of subjects, some would definately get sick cause not everyone needs ginseng.

Presumably, you'd only treat people who had a condition alleviated by ginseng.

Cause they got sick, there'd be docter induced harmful consequnce, researchers would feel herbs are unsafe, and more misconceptions would occur.

Umm, isn't this pretty much the idea?

When they figured out the weight-loss drug (name escapes me right now) caused people's heart valves to stop working, this was a good things.

Plus most Chinese RXs have a number of herbs in them, and creating a placebo that has the taste of all tose herbs would be difficult. Plus the synergistic/antagonistic aspects of formulas, preperation, decocting or tincturing, well good luck double-blinding that.

I've spent 5 minutes on this email and I've come up with potential strategies to attack this problem. They may not be worth a ****, but if they occur to me I have to question why others can't be similarly creative.

As an aside, I appreciate your response. Unlike most I've received when I've had this discussion in the past, it showed a willingness and ability to have a discussion.

While it's the ideal, I don't expect researchers to create a "perfect" study. There's a middle-ground that beneficial for everyone.

[Former castleva]

"Just to jump into the palaver regarding TCM and it's validity, of course the medicine is valid. Acupuncture is a very common form of medicine, in China, Europe, Mexico, acupucnture and chinese medicine is found everywhere? Does it work? Of course it does"

Hi to you too!
Do not expect one to take your word for it´s validity,it may spread very well and as far as I know,millions of people still use homeopathy despite it´s extremely questionable value.

"Finding a scientific basis for Chi- it will never happen. That's using western concepts/paradigms for non-western concepts."
One last time,scientific method does not look for selected locations.



"The best way to determine validity is to get sick ,break a leg, catch pneumonia, or just feel bummed out and then get treatment from a practitioner of Chinese medicine. The positive results of better health will be valid."
Those are serious conditions,I do not think I would be taking changes (of course practitioners around are a few too)

From The National Council Against Health Fraud:
"Research during the past 20 years has not demonstrated that acupuncture is effective against any disease."
"Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest"
"Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion, counter-irritation, conditioning, and other psychologic mechanisms."
"Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge"

That´s mostly on acupuncture,but it probably gives a decent picture considering that it is what laymen know this practice from.

"With acupuncture no has come up with a way to make a placbo acupuncture needle."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-po...=r&uid=9717924

"Introducing a placebo needle into acupuncture research.

Streitberger K, Kleinhenz J.

Clinic of Anesthesiology, University of Heidelberg, Germany.

BACKGROUND: A problem acupuncture research has to face is the concept of a control group. If, in control groups, non-acupoint needling is done, physiological acupuncture effects are implied. Therefore the effects shown in this group are often close to those shown in the acupuncture group. In other trials, control groups have received obviously different treatments, such as transcutaneous electrical nervous stimulation or TENS-laser treatment; it is not clear if the effects of acupuncture are due only to the psychological effects of the treatment. METHODS: We developed a placebo acupuncture needle, with which it should be possible to simulate an acupuncture procedure without penetrating the skin. In a cross-over experiment with 60 volunteers we tested whether needling with the placebo needle feels any different from real acupuncture. FINDINGS: Of 60 volunteers, 54 felt a penetration with acupuncture (mean visual analogue scale [VAS] 13.4; SD 10.58) and 47 felt it with placebo (VAS 8.86; SD 10.55), 34 felt a dull pain sensation (DEQI) with acupuncture and 13 with placebo. None of the volunteers suspected that the needle may not have penetrated the skin. INTERPRETATION: The placebo needle is sufficiently credible to be used in investigations of the effects of acupuncture."

Another similar study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

"Credibility of a newly designed placebo needle for clinical trials in acupuncture research.

Fink M, Gutenbrunner C, Rollnik J, Karst M.

Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, Hannover Medical School. m.g.fink@gmx.de

OBJECTIVE: To test the credibility of a newly designed placebo needle for acupuncture research. DESIGN: Analysis of data on credibility of true and placebo interventions of a randomised, placebo-controlled, patient- and evaluator-blind clinical trial. PATIENTS AND SETTING: The study was carried out at a university department for physical medicine and rehabilitation. 68 patients (age 48.1 +/- 14.1 years, mean +/- SD) fulfilling the criteria of the International Headache Society for tension-type headache were enrolled into the study. INTERVENTIONS: Group 1 (treatment) was assigned to traditional needle placement and manipulation, whereas in group 2 (control) a new placebo device was used. OUTCOME PARAMETERS: After the first treatment with real or placebo acupuncture, patients were asked to fill in a questionnaire on credibility. In addition, after 3 or 4 treatments, patients were asked for the feeling of needle insertion and deqi. RESULTS: No difference between real and placebo acupuncture was detected with respect to the credibility of the treatment (p > 0.05). Needle insertion was recognised in all patients in the real acupuncture group and in all but 4 patients of the placebo group (p < 0.05). deqi was reported by 84% of patients in the real acupuncture group and by 34% of patients in the placebo group (p < 0.001). CONCLUSION: Acupuncture with the placebo needle device described here is of high credibility, and does not differ from that of real acupuncture treatment. However, to achieve comparable ***** sensations in both treatment conditions, careful training with the placebo needle is needed. Furthermore, from these results arise new questions with respect to the placebo response of placebo needles. Further investigations are warranted to test if placebo needles are active controls. Copyright 2001 S. Karger GmbH, Freiburg"


"A practioner of acupuncture will place great importance on the exact location of the acupucnture point in order for acu to work, with the idea if throwing in a needle anywhere in the body-not in a location that has results- the idea of palcebo negates the reason why acu works. Points are exact and must me located exactly hence no results."
I do realize that the exact point is considered important but I do remember this study which was published in a science mag. (unfortunately I can´t offer you a reference)
The study concerned psychiatric patients with depression,there were a few groups which received additional acupuncture treatment for it (using supposedly appropriate techniques)
One group was needled "right",another was treated with "wrong" points.
Conclusions:Both groups showed some minor differences in condition but the results were just as good or bad on both sides.It was suggested that additional attention that patients got (again coming back to rather differing reasons for explaining) was probably why they showed minor improvements.

But do not take my word for it,necessarily.

Documented study:
"Acupuncture and bronchial asthma: a long-term randomized study of the effects of real versus sham acupuncture compared to controls in patients with bronchial asthma.

Medici TC, Grebski E, Wu J, Hinz G, Wuthrich B.

Department of Internal Medicine, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland. media@bluewin.ch

BACKGROUND: Acupuncture has traditionally been used in China in the treatment of bronchial asthma and is being increasingly applied in Western countries. Although there are many published studies on acupuncture and asthma, few meet the scientific criteria necessary to prove the effectiveness of acupuncture. OBJECTIVE: To examine the short- and long-term effects of real versus sham or no acupuncture in patients with bronchial asthma. DESIGN: Randomized partially blinded study with three parallel groups. SUBJECTS: Sixty-six (66) patients of both genders (mean age, 39 years) with mild-to-moderate persistent bronchial asthma. INTERVENTIONS: After 2 weeks of run-in, the patients with asthma were randomized to receive either real (23 patients) or sham acupuncture (23 patients) or no acupuncture (20 patients). Two acupuncture periods (each 4 weeks) within the first 4 months were followed by a 6-month observation. MEASUREMENTS: Primary outcome was the change of peak expiratory flow (PEF) variability at the end of the two treatment periods. Secondary outcomes were changes in forced expiratory volume in 1 second (FEV1), airway responsiveness, symptoms of asthma, the use of asthma drugs, and patients' well-being. Moreover, the effect of the intervention on eosinophils and eosinophil cationic protein (ECP) in blood and sputum was assessed. RESULTS: PEF variability decreased in all groups. In a subgroup of patients whose asthma medication remained fairly unchanged, PEF variability decreased significantly after needling of real as well as sham points at month 4 and 5 compared to controls (p < or = 0.005). However, there was no difference in the decrease of PEF variability between patients who had the blinded treatment with real or sham acupuncture. Most of the other functional and clinical variables did not differ from those obtained in controls. Eosinophils and ECP in blood and sputum decreased in all groups, but the only significant differences were found in blood eosinophil count at 4 months between sham acupuncture and the control group (p < 0.05) and at 10 months between real and sham acupuncture (p < 0.05) suggesting a possible effect on eosinophilic inflammation. CONCLUSIONS: In view of the fact that the effects after real and sham acupuncture compared to controls who had no needling at all were small, in all likelihood clinically irrelevant, our data do not seem to support the use of acupuncture in the management of pharmacologically well-treated patients with mild-to-moderate persistent asthma."
Source being:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

"With a placebo- an untrainned person placing needles in incorrect locations- acu won't work to begin with."
More study,controversial?

[Former castleva]

"However if you feel chi, you'll know it's something, it exists."
If you assume it is chi,then good for you but this is not an argument.

"The significance of needle placement site in acupuncture.

Vincent CA, Richardson PH, Black JJ, Pither CE.

Department of Psychology, University College, London, U.K.

Traditional acupuncturists claim that correct needling of classical acupuncture loci is associated with a characteristic set of sensations usually referred to as 'Teh Chi'. The studies reported here examine this claim. In the first a multiple adjective sensation rating scale was developed and administered to 125 patients receiving acupuncture treatment. The results were subjected to principal components analysis and the first factor to emerge provided some support for the constellation of sensations corresponding to Teh Chi. In the second study the scale was used in a randomised controlled mixed single/double blind experiment in which 65 volunteers were stimulated at three classical and three non-classical (sham) needling sites by either a trained acupuncturist (single blind) or an anaesthetist (double blind). The results of the second study did not support the contention that the sensations of Teh Chi occur more frequently at classical acupuncture needling sites. The implications of the results for the practice of acupuncture are discussed.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial"


"With herbs, double blind is hard if not impossible due to the nature of herbs."
If it is so impossible to test them,is not it questionable to hand them out or assume they work?
Of course to not test them would only allow this kind of practice to sink deeper down into mysticism and it would sure still be considered questionable at least.


"...researchers would feel herbs are unsafe, and more misconceptions would occur"
And herbs can be unsafe,there is a documented case or two of a person dying of related herbs (related person´s medical condition might have conflicted with)
I once mentioned this to a doctor of mine and he was quick to remind that he has witnessed a case where a natural herb launched a life threatening allergic reaction.

"The herbal and dietary methods of Chinese medicine are alien to pharmacology and nutrition science. At least 7,000 plant species are used as medicines in China. Of the 150 most commonly used species, ten are poisonous at "doses" recommended by herbalists. Unquestionably, many of these thousands of plant species have at least marginal therapeutic utility, but the prescientific system that guides their use is unreliable."
Source being:http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/raso/frmacu.html

"Plus the synergistic/antagonistic aspects of formulas, preperation, decocting or tincturing, well good luck double-blinding that."
If credibility is what they are after,rest is history.

"Remember there still is cancer, common cold, hepatitis, and every other form of disease in the US, Canada, Europe and in China, Africa, Paraguay. Does this mean does western medicine or Chinese medicine (a la traditional or ethnic medicine) works or doesn't work?"
Hardly does,agreed.
Do I think this relates to this context or does a thing for central arguments? Hardly.

Thank you for posting.

[Former castleva]

"Cardiovascular effects of acupuncture stimulation at point Governing Vessel 26 in halothane-anesthetized ponies.

Dill SG, Gleed R, Matthews NS, Erb HN, Miller TK.

Department of Clinical Sciences, New York State College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca 14853.

The acupuncture point Governing Vessel (GV-26) is used commonly in the Orient to treat shock in human beings and other species. The cardiovascular effects of stimulation of GV-26 were studied in healthy ponies during 2 episodes of halothane anesthesia. During one anesthetic episode, electrical stimulation (electrostimulation) of GV-26 was performed, and during the other anesthetic episode, heat stimulation (moxibustion) of GV-26 was performed. The order of the stimulations was random. A nonacupuncture point was selected for comparable control stimulation during each experiment. Control and acupuncture stimulations were of equal intensity. There were no significant changes in cardiac output, systemic arterial pressure, or heart rate associated with either electrical or heat acupuncture stimulation."

"Electroacupuncture in the treatment of chronic lameness in horses and ponies: a controlled clinical trial.

Steiss JE, White NA, Bowen JM.

Department of Physiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Georgia, Athens 30602.

Electroacupuncture was used to treat lameness in horses and ponies with chronic laminitis (n = 10) or navicular disease (n = 10). A clinical trial was conducted with random allocation of equal numbers of animals to control and treatment groups. Acupuncture was performed three times per week for four consecutive weeks. The degree of lameness was assessed by 1) a grading scheme, 2) measurement of stride lengths and 3) analysis of weight distribution using a force plate. Although seven out of ten animals with chronic laminitis improved clinically during the trial, there were no statistically significant differences between treatment and control groups. Six out of ten horses with navicular disease improved, but there were no significant differences between treatment and control groups."

Double-blind evaluation of implants of gold wire at acupuncture points in the dog as a treatment for osteoarthritis induced by hip dysplasia.

"Hielm-Bjorkman A, Raekallio M, Kuusela E, Saarto E, Markkola A, Tulamo RM.

Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Department of Clinical Sciences, University of Helsinki, Finland.

Thirty-eight dogs with hip dysplasia were studied to evaluate the use of gold wire implants at acupuncture points around the hip joints. They were assigned at random into two groups of 19. In the treated group, gold wire was inserted through hypodermic needles at electrically found acupuncture points around both hips. In the control group, the areas were prepared in the same way but had only the skin pierced at sites which were not acupuncture points, with a needle of the same size as that used in the treated group. Over a period of six months the dogs were studied repeatedly by two veterinarians and by the dogs' owners who were unaware of the treatments the dogs had received; they assessed the dogs' locomotion, hip function and signs of pain. Radiographs were taken at the beginning and end of the study. Although the data collected from both groups by the veterinarians and the owners showed a significant improvement of locomotion and reduction in signs of pain (P=0.036 for the veterinary evaluation and locomotion and P=0.0001 and P=0.0034 for the owners' evaluation of locomotion and pain, respectively), there were no statistically significant differences between the treated and control groups (P=0.19 and P=0.41, P=0.24, respectively)."

[Pilgrim]

Whoooaaaa
This is a very intellectual topic and i guess that's what scientific research is all about. Unfortunately.
A lot of the way i view research and stats ( you know lies, big lies and statistics) comes from where i come from. I've had a license to pratice acupuncture/herbs and all the other stuff within the scope of my practice for the last 11 years. So I've got a conception of what I do.
Those resources from medical schools come from a certain place. Not saying I'm biased or that they are biased. If you have access to all the many journals of acupuncture you'll find studies that clearly say that acupucnture works, herbs are good and that chi exists-actually I haven't seen one of those, not that such studies don't exist but I've read none. Chi's existence is based on assumption I guess. And chi is not electricity or energy it goes beyond that, there's a cultural concept idea identity of something that we in the west have lost. However such concepts of chi exist in native american healing but that is definately not written down. So how can it be studied. Energy work exists in muslim culture, india, malaysia but most of the people who know teach those concepts do so on a personal level. ( Well aruyvedic medicne is becoming more present inn the west.)
If you've ever seen a person or an animal die, you know something leaves them at the moment of death. Chi. If you've ever felt love that did something to you, well those changes and feeling s have a lot to do with chi. And if you've ever wondered why so and so who seemed so healthy and had a physical that found no problems with their healtth, yet they suddenly died, became totally depressed or suddenly had a migriane, well that's chi.
Look in some of the web sites from the acupuncture schools, they often have plenty of research going on. There's a man named Richard Hemmerschlag who runs , along with some other medical people, a web site on acupuncture research.( probably spelled his name wrong but it's basically correct) itmonline.com has stuff that would be of interest(insitute of traditional medicine in oregon)
Perhaps one needs to consider what is healing. Taking paxil for the rest of your life or taking herbs for the rest of your life. Both can help control depression but no one says either cures the depression. Taking herbs or acupuncture to decrease the frequncy/severity of colds definately happens, but that person may still get a cold. The reality is the person who gets their yearly flu shot is also likely to get a cold. Does that mean the medicine is not working?
The idea about herbs not being safe, that is true. Also remember that iatrogenic death is the leading cause of death in any hospital. The number of people killed by aspirine, wrong medications, incorrect dosages, incorrect medical procedures is far larger then the deaths due to let's say, mahuang . And the kava kava thing that's because the insurance industry has threatened to end coverage for practitioners who use kava kava, it's not based on much research. Of course the backlash of a MD accidentally killing a person is not as intense as an acupucnturist killing a person, which as far as I know has not occured in the US, Canada, England , Germany, Australia.I could go on.
The thing is herbs are safer then medications. I'd like to see the dosages of the toxic herbs from that guys web site.
Anyway, medicine is experiential. One of you guys live in Finland and i don't know if there are any acupuncturists there. I do know there's a really good guy who lives in Lapland who practices serak. But the things is , try the medicine. See what it does for your health. It will improve your condition on a physical, emotional, and spiritual level. I mean you had the balls to do kung fu, we're not talking ballet, find out more about the culture and try some of the medicine.

[Former castleva]

Whoooaaaa
"This is a very intellectual topic and i guess that's what scientific research is all about. Unfortunately." How come it is unfortunate?
"A lot of the way i view research and stats ( you know lies, big lies and statistics) comes from where i come from. I've had a license to pratice acupuncture/herbs and all the other stuff within the scope of my practice for the last 11 years. So I've got a conception of what I do." I see.
"Those resources from medical schools come from a certain place. Not saying I'm biased or that they are biased." I tried not to pick my references from directly skeptic sources. "If you have access to all the many journals of acupuncture you'll find studies that clearly say that acupucnture works, herbs are good and that chi exists-actually I haven't seen one of those, not that such studies don't exist but I've read none." OK.OK,you´re saying you have not seen them? I see. "Chi's existence is based on assumption I guess." Myth that is. "And chi is not electricity or energy it goes beyond that, there's a cultural concept idea identity of something that we in the west have lost." Uh huh,can you clarify? What have we "lost"? "However such concepts of chi exist in native american healing but that is definately not written down." Documented information would probably be hard to find.Always to keep in mind that such methods tend to be very old and possibly religiously related. "So how can it be studied.Energy work exists in muslim culture, india, malaysia but most of the people who know teach those concepts do so on a personal level." I see. "( Well aruyvedic medicne is becoming more present inn the west.)" Might be sad.

"If you've ever seen a person or an animal die, you know something leaves them at the moment of death. Chi. "
Irrelevant.Unrelated.
This is equal to a religious belief,something I prefer not to mess with in this context.
What is this supposed to mean?

"If you've ever felt love that did something to you, well those changes and feeling s have a lot to do with chi."
Irrelevant.Unrelated.Wrong.

"And if you've ever wondered why so and so who seemed so healthy and had a physical that found no problems with their healtth, yet they suddenly died, became totally depressed or suddenly had a migriane, well that's chi."
With as much respect as possible,that´s utter woo woo.
Extremely simple way to express things though.
Thank lord we know that,earth would still be flat if we did not.

Anyhow,here is a discussion that you might find interested (to a degree at least)
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=17634

"Look in some of the web sites from the acupuncture schools, they often have plenty of research going on. There's a man named Richard Hemmerschlag who runs , along with some other medical people, a web site on acupuncture research.( probably spelled his name wrong but it's basically correct) itmonline.com has stuff that would be of interest(insitute of traditional medicine in oregon) "
I may check that out.Thank you.

"Perhaps one needs to consider what is healing. Taking paxil for the rest of your life or taking herbs for the rest of your life. Both can help control depression but no one says either cures the depression."
Never have I heard how herbs have helped depression (possible anecdotes/promotion aside)
Neither have I heard why herbs would help depression.
Drugs may not always help depression but they can,and there is a basis for that.

"Taking herbs or acupuncture to decrease the frequncy/severity of colds definately happens, but that person may still get a cold. The reality is the person who gets their yearly flu shot is also likely to get a cold. Does that mean the medicine is not working?"
Which one do you think would come out on top?
How about cutting down vaccines for those? (Not gonna happen)
I´m confident that there still are a lot of people out there "dying" to be injected.
You may run into quackerists against vaccines for reasons badly established,take those with a grain of salt (just a sidenote)

"Anyway, medicine is experiential. One of you guys live in Finland and i don't know if there are any acupuncturists there."
There must be some,but being a relatively developed country...

". I do know there's a really good guy who lives in Lapland who practices serak"
Thanks for telling.I´m not familiar with serak though.

" It will improve your condition on a physical, emotional, and spiritual level. I mean you had the balls to do kung fu, we're not talking ballet, find out more about the culture and try some of the medicine."
Related culture used to be a remarkable interest for me so in that sense I´m not operating on plain thin air,I hope.

"The idea about herbs not being safe, that is true. Also remember that iatrogenic death is the leading cause of death in any hospital. The number of people killed by aspirine, wrong medications, incorrect dosages, incorrect medical procedures is far larger then the deaths due to let's say, mahuang ."
Probably (mahuang is unproven as far as I know)
Fortunately we´re talking about incorrect application (or simply failure) to use correct medicine.
Aspirine is a natural drug btw,it can be dangerous but it can also help in threatening situations.

"The thing is herbs are safer then medications."
Counting the priorities...
probable Zero win/lose VS possible side-effects+considerable help.

Additionally:
Herbs you do not want to mess with-

Chinese Herbs;
Syo-saiko-to
Kombucha (herbal, mushroom or Jin-Bu-Huan
Kvass tea, kwapsan, tind kangasok)
Shon-wu-ian
Chuifong toukuwan
(Number of herbs have been found to cause serious or even fatal consequences to the direction of liver hepatitis)

Containing nephrotoxins:
Guan Mu Tong
Ma Dou Ling
Ba Zheng San
Xin Yi San
etc.

"Ginseng
The active ingredients in this herb are called ginsenosides and these are reported to enhance the body's immune system. If a person is healthy, then the immune system will be healthy. Any benefit above your natural immunity is pure speculation. Further, when analyzed, many of these "ginseng" products contain none or little of these active ingredients. And it may increase the blood pressure."

Of course certain remedies are very hard on extinct species too...

Other dangerous herbs:
Belladonna
Blue Gohash
Borage
Broom
Chaparrel
Coltsfoot
Comfrey
Ephedra
Germanium (Germander)
Lobelia
Poke Root
Sassafras
Skull Cap
Stephania
Tryptophan
Wormwood
Yohimbe

More Chinese;
"People with diabetes: Beware Chinese herbs (source: http://your-doctor.com/patient_info/...erb_fraud.html )

People who have diabetes should avoid five brands of Chinese herbal products because they illegally contain drugs that can cause dangerous drops in blood sugar, according to the FDA.

California investigators discovered the herbs contain the prescription diabetes drugs glyburide and phenformin. People who use any of these herbs regularly and take diabetes medication are particularly at risk.

Diabetes Hypoglucose Capsules (sold by Chinese Angel Health Care Products of Santa Monica, Calif.)

Pearl Hypoglycemic Capsules (imported by Sino American Health Products Inc., of Torrance, Calif.)

Tongyitang Diabetes Angel Pearl Hypoglycemic Capsules and Tongyitang Diabetes Angel Hypoglycemic Capsules (sold by Sino American)

Zhen Qi Capsules (sold by Sino American)"

"People with skin conditions: Beware of Chinese remedies

Persons using "Chinese" skin preparations should think twice. Many of these unregulated products have been found to contain high potency corticosteroids at concentrations much higher than many prescription preparations.

Corticosteroids are useful in certain skin conditions but can cause many problems when used improperly including permanent skin damage and interference with the body's immune system. Furthermore, use of such products can mask potentially serious problems, such as skin cancer or autoimmune diseases, that have skin manifestations."

And so on.

Thanks for posting.

[Pilgrim]

Hey
I've given you resources to find more scientific resources for Chinese medicine, Encounters With Chi, Medicine Of China, A history of Ideas. Read the intro to Chinese Medicine by George Soulie De Morant,the man some feel is extremely important for bring acupuncture to the west; a man who demanded Western knowledge expand to cover all the observations of Chinese acupuncture. Joseph Needham has a series of like 10 to 20 books covering Chinese science. Contact the Chinese med school or schools in Sweden, they have lots of info for you. You can get really intellectual on some of the pro Chinese medicine/complementary medicne web sites, there's people there who will have the info you seek.
A heart of stone, that's so sad. A person who truely lacks preconceived ideas in every aspect of their life, especially when looking at new ideas, that is rare. That's a person with no fear. Like I said try the medicine.
Those who say don't know, those who know don't say. This is way more time then I usually spend on the internet; time to do stances, practice, pratice, practice the things I love to do.

[fragbot]

Castleva: if you wish to respond to individual paragraphs, it'd be much easier to read if you quoted them individually while separating your responses out.

Pilgrim: at this point, it's obvious you didn't pay attention during debate class in high school. Assuming it's reasonable to view TCM as the science of Chinese medicine, y'all are getting your clock cleaned. If you believe TCM is better viewed through the prism of the folklorist or, perhaps, the theologian, you'll need to frame your argument in this manner.

[Former castleva]

"Castleva: if you wish to respond to individual paragraphs, it'd be much easier to read if you quoted them individually while separating your responses out."
I agree my responses may get a bit messy at times.

Thanks both.

[fragbot]

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aa.../evidence.html

Most telling are the hierarchies of clinical evidence.

[looking_up]

I don't have time to read this whole discussion, but I wanted to say (if it hasn't been stated yet) that health shouldn't be a complicated matter that requires millions of dollars of scientific testing of chemicals and new therpies. Yes, there is a place for these things, and obviously people benefit from this sort of effort, but one need not make medicine/health care into something that only research scientists can understand. This is just common sense, which should be enough for anyone to keep themselves relatively healthy. In certain cases, help is needed, but the natural state of the body is health, not sickness. The TCM doctor is merely encouraging the return to balance/equilibrium. The human body is very complex, but at the same time it is not.

Thanks.

[Pilgrim]

Jello
As many folks know Chinese medicine really works. Personallly I've healed a tibial plateau fracture, torn acl, and torn medial maniscus with acupuncture, herbs, and chi gung. Had no insurance, didn't have 5 grand for surgury, and worked really hard and did the medicine for .........oh I still use Chinese medicine. It's part of a life style.Course the injury was 11 years ago. Broken fingers, cracked radius, a couple bouts with the flu. All cured.
A woman's bartholinitis was so severe she was about to have surgury ( talk about ouch and emotions) but acupuncture and lonicera, dandelion, smilax, moutan , red peony , corydalis and buplerum cured the problem. Someone's Bell's Palsy went from can't move the muscles on the right side of my face to gosh it's almost gone- after three acupucnture treatments. After 4 treatments and ongoing herbs, it is gone. The MD's were encouraging the person to take antibiotics and prednizone for several months in order to resolve the palsy. So the drugs and the herbs and the acupucnture was taken, what was the cure?
A person who wondered "can a mouse live inside my head " was told "no it can't" and has been out of the hostital for the longest period of their life; they feel because of acupuncture and compliance with medications. Guess it's palcebo, doesn't work, it's a crazy person saying acupuncture works. Reality is hospitalization has stopped, partly due to acupucnture needles that cost $4 a box of 100.
When interferon first came out to treat Hep C, like in 1990-1992, the sustained viral response was 10%. Side effects also included flu symptoms, nausea, depression, loss of appetite ( sounds like what happens with untreated Hep C ) but also included bone marrow suppression, anemia, depression, and thyroiditis. Now of course things have changed with pegylated interferon. The point is that western medicine is given a different standard then alternative/complementary/ Chinese medicine when it comes to acceptable side effects.
Yeah that Chinese medicne doesn't work
Why is practically every major teaching hospital in the US (Finland is not at this modern point yet, or is it?) giving medical docters the opportunity to learn about herbs and acupucnture so those modalities can be added to their medical skills? So MDs can make more money? Shame on you for thinking that. ( Maybe that is true. Maybe MD's want to take over the show)The reason is because those modalities are successful in clinical settings.
UCLA's medical docter course of 200-300 hours is all a MD needs to do acupucnture. Most non- MD schools are 2500 - 3000 hours but of course they are not doctors.
Could go on but 15 minutes is enough of hunting and pecking on the type writer ooooops keyboard.
I truely believe Chinese medicne and all alternative/complementary forms of medicine work, are socially responsible from the grass roots up, give people a choice in how they want to be treated ,and just like all health care attempt to do no harm. The more people work together for a common cause, the more likely the cause will occur.

[cha kuen]

MD's only have to take 200-300 hours of schooling to do acupunture? That is insulting.

But then again, they won't make good acupunturist so they won't be a threat to us. But then again, it's a bad name for acupunture.

[PLCrane]

Originally posted by Former castleva
"Cardiovascular effects of acupuncture stimulation at point Governing Vessel 26 in halothane-anesthetized ponies.

Dill SG, Gleed R, Matthews NS, Erb HN, Miller TK.

During one anesthetic episode, electrical stimulation (electrostimulation) of GV-26 was performed, and during the other anesthetic episode, heat stimulation (moxibustion) of GV-26 was performed. The order of the stimulations was random. A nonacupuncture point was selected for comparable control stimulation during each experiment. Control and acupuncture stimulations were of equal intensity. There were no significant changes in cardiac output, systemic arterial pressure, or heart rate associated with either electrical or heat acupuncture stimulation."

I see a problem with this design. If the effects of acupuncture depend on central processing of sensory information, the anesthesia may prevent this from happening. Maybe I'm wrong - has it been previously shown that acupuncture is effective on anesthetized subjects?

I see a problem with the sham needles, too. Same problem. If the effects depend on sensory information, then any stimulation of the point may have an effect. Thus, something like heating a point or massaging a point might work. Clinical experience suggests that these other methods of point stimulation are effective.

Here's a link to the NIH Consensus Statement on Acupuncture
http://odp.od.nih.gov/consensus/cons/107/107_intro.htm

And here's some text from the into page -
Acupuncture as a therapeutic intervention is widely practiced in the United States. While there have been many studies of its potential usefulness, many of these studies provide equivocal results because of design, sample size, and other factors. The issue is further complicated by inherent difficulties in the use of appropriate controls, such as placebos and sham acupuncture groups. However, promising results have emerged, for example, showing efficacy of acupuncture in adult post-operative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in post-operative dental pain. There are other situations such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofacial pain, osteoarthritis, low back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma where acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program. Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.

[Former castleva]

"I see a problem with the sham needles, too. Same problem. If the effects depend on sensory information, then any stimulation of the point may have an effect. Thus, something like heating a point or massaging a point might work. Clinical experience suggests that these other methods of point stimulation are effective."
It has been shown various times,that whether you activate the certain point or not (a completely wrong point as an example) the results may not vary at all.
Another thing to take into account is that "real" needles are,as far as I know,designed for that very purpose.While using fake needles,the impact on the skin may be significantly lower than what it tends to be while using general acuneedles.

"I see a problem with this design. If the effects of acupuncture depend on central processing of sensory information, the anesthesia may prevent this from happening. Maybe I'm wrong - has it been previously shown that acupuncture is effective on anesthetized subjects?"
Besides a few rather proud hoaxes,I´m yet to see anything very convincing.