Northern Shaolin styles

[Kung Lek]

Hi-
brad, Fukien (Fujian) is the reputed site of the Southern Sil Lum(Shaolin) Temple.
The pRC claims to have unearthed the remains of this temple but it is still debatable, even in the light of the "discovery" if indeed there really was a southern shaolin temple.

as you know or may have heard, there are many temples "associated" with Shaolin in henan at Mount Song.
The northern Temple at song shan(mount sung) is the only irrefutable Shaolin temple.

Many of the other temples such as WuDang shan and emei shan are often times mistakenly called shaolin because the shaolin shared knowledge with these Taoist temples and the Taoist temples reciprocated with sharing knowledge of their own.

As you may also know there are strong ties betwenn ch'an buddhism (the buddhism practiced by the Shaolin) and Taoism. This tie between them may be the cause of the mistaken associations beyond what they really were.

peace

Kung Lek

[NorthernShaolin]

ShaolinMaster: Thank you for the updated info. As for 9 island- guess I better get another dictionary. Thank you again.

Beiquan: To clarify about Wing Lam, he first learned southern Shaolin, Hung Gar, and his classmate is Y.C. Wong. When Wing Lam arrived in the SF Area, he joined the Ching Wu School and started to learn Northern Shaolin from Wong Jack about 1967. He was willing to give up his southern style for northern. When Y.C. Wong appeared in the area about 1968-69, Wing Lam joined him in a demo which was promoting Y.C. Wong’s grand opening of his school and southern Shaolin. Protocol was violated in the eyes of Wong Jack and thus Wing Lam was strongly advised to leave Ching Wu. Wing Lam made plans to return to HK and learn from Wong Jack’s teacher, Yim Shan Wu. Wing Lam did not return to the states until 1971-72 and open his own school in San Francisco. Is there still bad blood? I do not think so. Wing Lam has tremulous respect to Wong Jack and Wong Jack has never discusses Wing Lam in a negative matter.

Jaguar Wong: After reading your comment, I am only guessing that the staff that is poked into the ground is the Ground Demon Staff set. I do not know the staff set that rolls on the ground. As a side point, I have always been interested in what were our past grand masters favorite weapons because this would offer some insight about them. Here what I found:

Yim Chi Wen - Long Spear (specifically 24 Iron Spear), hence his name ‘Great Spear Yim’
Kuo Li Chih -Staff
Sun Yu Fung - Saber, hence his nickname, ‘King of Sabers of Seven Provinces’
Li Ching Lin - Wu Tang Swords, nickname ‘God of Sword’
Kuo Yu Chang - Raise Blocking Spear, nickname ‘Iron Palm, God of Spear’
Pa Ching Hsiang- Kwan Do and Flying Fork
Wan Li Sheng (Yim Shan Wu’s first teacher)-Spear - Spear (Specifically Lui Ho Spear), later the Sword (specifically Eight Faries Sword)
Yim Shan Wu-Shaolin Sword (specifically Seven Star Sword), later Wu Tang Sword (specifically Tai Yu Sword)
Lung Tzu Hsiang- Shaolin Sword (specifically Dragon Shape Sword)
Ma Ching Fung-Double Chain, later Wu Tang Sword (specifically Dragon Phoenix Sword)
Wong Jack- Double Sabers (Shaolin Ti Tung) and Triple Staff (Continuous Links), currently Wu Tang Swords

Mantis 108: I learned these two sets and I only asked my sifu about Gung Lic. He told me that the set was part of the ten Standard Ching Wu sets that every member are required to learn. These ten sets were developed in the Ching Wu schools to establish a standard for new beginners to build a foundation for before learning higher sets. The purpose of Gung Lic was to develop internal breathing for external styles because the set was designed to alternates breathing:inhale then exhale with every move, i.e. inhale to block, exhale to punch.

I translated a section from a Ching Wu document that may explain more about the techniques involved in the two sets that you are inquiring.

‘As the chief instructor, Chao Lin Ho developed a curriculum that would be regarded as the standard Ching Wu sets. In one of his lecture papers he wrote: “Our Chinese Wu Shu (Martial Arts) is composed of many styles. Long ago, sifus were very selfish. They kept their own styles very secret, teaching no one their real kung fu except for a select few disciples. Eventually good styles died out. Huo Yuan Chia organized the Ching Wu Ti Yu Hui in Shanghai for the express purpose of creating a National Martial Arts free from stylistic jealousy and secrecy. Good techniques from the co-operating styles were grouped into ten Ching Wu hand and weapon sets. These ten sets will be the standard sets for our school.

1. Twelve Rows of Tam Tui
2. Gung Lic Kung (Work - Strength Fist)
3. Jeet Chuan (Weaving Fist)
4. Big Battle Fist
5. Eight Trigram Saber
6. Shepherding Staff
7. Five Tiger Spear
8. Tam Tui Sparring
9. Set Fist
10. Saber verses Spear

Within these ten sets are elements of numerous styles from throughout China. It does not stress one style over another nor any particular region. Those techniques which are considered good and useful were included. This program takes two years to complete. Any instructor who wishes to teach at the Ching Wu Physical Cultural Association must learn these ten sets.

Any student who completes the ten fundamental sets may proceed to other styles. The ten sets, in encompassing good elements of many styles, will give the student a knowledge of principles of Martial Arts in China.” ‘

Mantis 108:As far as some of your Praying Mantis classmates knowing some Ching Wu sets, it is probably because many praying mantis sifus either taught or learned at the many Ching Wu schools in China and incorporated some of the standard Ching Wu sets into their curriculum as in the Northern Shaolin Eagle Claw schools of Lau Fat Man. As head instructor of Ching Wu, Chao Lin Ho hired four instructors, who became the Four Elders of Ching Wu. They were Chen Tzu Ching of Northern Shaolin Fan Tzu Eagle Claw. Lo Kwang Yu of Northern Praying Mantis (Seven Star), Wu Chien Chuan of Wu Style Tai Chi and Keng Kai Kuan of Hsing -I.

Also Chao Chu Chi (Chiu Chuk Kai) of Tai Chi Praying Mantis taught at a Ching Wu school and hence, he has incorporated at least one set, saber verse spear, into his curriculum.

Ironpig: 12 row tam tui was developed by Chao Lin Ho who was a Chinese Muslim. 12 row Tam Tui was not practiced or developed by the Shaolin monks.
:) :cool:

[beiquan]

i did not know that yim shang mo had a teacher before kuo yu cheong, i guess that explains how he could pick up the style so easily at a more advanced age. what style did wan li sheng teach? wasn't he also one of the "tigers from the north" who came to teach at nanjing with kuo yu cheong?

[Shaolin Master]

KL,
Unlike what others may say (Something Do), Fujian shaolin related temples were not necessarily called 'Shaolinsi' like that of Henan.
The Fact that the site PRC are trying to ascertain is the Putian Shaolin Temple, Though another was said to exist in Jiu Lien Shan as well. The other temples that were associated with shaolin for ch'an and martial arts were places like 'Guang Lau Si', 'Ching Xi Si', and the like. Also in other so called places where arts existed Ermei, Wudang...etc same thing no shaolin temple as such just other temples that also were associated borrowing and sharing teachings as well as developing on their. However as shaolin is so popular today many peculiar people have stated oh there is a 'shaolin' named temple here and there...not so.
As descendants of temples teaching arts in these areas in the shaolin method we may refer to those temples as shaolin without incorrection as such but it is conjecture of a name. It happens in many things......

Of course now there is a flash brand new Nan Shaolin Si in Fujian ....thanks to the PRC and there attempts at marketing shaolin as Disneyland but I have no comments on those undertakings.

Yim Sheng Mo would have studied Hung Quan previously.
GrandMaster Wong Lai Sheng Studied Shaolin LiuHe and ZiRanMen (Natural School).

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

I would also like to add that in Fujian there are also other temples that have been around for a very very long time.
One in particular is quite old and has survived intact to this day.

I found this curious that one buddhist temple would be destroyed and another would not in close proximity to each other.

curious isn't it? and I hear ya on the "disneyland" comment, that is so totally true of the state of Shaolin temple today. Although, I have heard good things and bad about what is going on there. The Russbo.com site has some good stuff on modern shaolin temple happenings.
As far as I know, there is still some strong Kung Fu being practiced there and it is mixed with a good helping of contemporary wu shu.

anyway, i can't speak about it with any authority because the big and small of it is that I really don't know the absolute truth about it and I can only go by what i am told, what i read and what i see in papers and newscasts.

peace

Kung Lek

[word]

AS YOU CAN SEE WING LAM DID LEARN FROM WONG JACK MAN. AND AS YOU CAN SEE HE ONLY LEARNED FROM YEM SEUNG MO FOR 3-4 YEARS. DO YOU REALY THINK HE WILL LEARN A LOT IN 3-4 YEARS? THATS' BEGINNERS LEVEL. WHAT GRANDMASTER IS GOIGN TO SHOW YOU EVERYTHING IN 3-4 YEARS? USUALLY IN 3-4 YEARS YOU ARE STILL A PIECE OF DIRT IN THE SCHOOL AND HAVE NOT ADVANCED INTO THE ADVANCED CLASS.

[ShaolinMantis]

Northern Shaolin: Xiexie Shisu, great posts a wealth of knowledge! I am very curious now what line you are from. At first I thought from Wong Sigung's ( like shaolinmantis )but, you said you did not know the Northern Staff set with the ground rolling, Jaugar Wong spoke of. His Sifu learned it from the Wong Jac Man line. I saw one of Wong Sigung's student's do it at the Taiji festivel in S.F. this year. A little different but mostly the same.
So respectfully I inquire your lineage...

Jaguar Wong: The ground demon staff may have come from Johnny Sole's teaching. Your Sifu studied with him before coming to Kam Yuen Sifu

Mantis 10: Shixiang, I asked Eng Sifu about Jeet Kune this summer he said also it was from the same Ching Wu teachings as Gung Lik Kune. I was told at the time I learned Gung Lik from a Sihing that is was a breathing set. It flowed from slow to fast moves with the strikes and blocks. I have not seen everyone do it this way as yet.
Ling Sisuk said that many schools use Gung Lik Kune as their foundation form these days. eg: the Eagle Claw school also uses Gung Lik.

My feelings on the use of Jeet Kune is that adds more of the Northern Shaolin feeling to the Mantis study. One understands more of the use of high kicks as well as the weakness of them. It also helps with the "lightness" that is needed for the Taiji Mantis sets. I noticed many of the younger players without the Northern Shaolin training stuggle with some of the kicks and sweeps. If they had not been exsposed to that , when encountering kicking fighters, they could have been unbalance by the attacks.

my respects...

ShaolinMantis-I

[beiquan]

... not Johnny Sole. chinese name is So Bin Yuen.

i am from this branch (my sigung is Ken Hui, one of So Sifu's senior students from the old Los Angeles school); never seen a ground demon pole but... there's lots of stuff i haven't seen :)

[This message was edited by beiquan on 12-12-00 at 05:49 PM.]

[NorthernShaolin]

I am at the same level as Shaolin Mantis with Paul Eng as our only senior classmate that is left. Your original assumption is right. I was at the Tai Chi at the park demo in SF. You were behind the video camera and we talked about our Tai Chi set and the book you saw overseas.

I guess I got confused. The set performed in the demo is Ground Demon but there is no rolling on the ground. Now that I think about it, I seem to recall that there was talk that Kam Yuen may have added ground rolling techniques like in the double sabers to the staff set when he left Wong Jack for LA in the early 1970's. If that's the case then I got it backwards and mislead Jaguar Wong...sorry. :cool:

[NorthernShaolin]

I am at the same level as Shaolin Mantis as he is my equal, with Paul Eng as our only senior classmate that is left. Your original assumption is right. I was at the Tai Chi at the park demo in SF. You were behind the video camera and we talked about our Tai Chi set and the book you saw overseas.

I guess I got confused. The set performed in the demo is Ground Demon but there is no rolling on the ground. Now that I think about it, I seem to recall that there was talk that Kam Yuen may have added ground rolling techniques like in the double sabers to the staff set when he left Wong Jack for LA in the early 1970's. If that's the case then I got it backwards and mislead Jaguar Wong...sorry. :cool:

[beiquan]

I am curious about the form Lok Hap Kune/Liu He Quan as practiced in the Northern Shaolin system. I know there are other styles which call themselves "six harmony", anyone know if this form is from another style or particular to the Kuo Yu Cheong branch?

sorry for asking so many questions :)

[Jaguar Wong]

Shaolin Mantis,
Yes, he did study with Johnny So, but I think he said that Ken Hui (senior student) taught most of the classes he went to. I'm not sure, I'll have to ask him.

NorthernShaolin,
Yes, the long staff set I'm talking about has the double sabre-like ground rolling in it. Wow, now I know the name of it. thanks man. No sweat about misleading me. I was confused to begin with :) That rolling stuff is pretty hard in that set, though.

Man all this stuff I'm learning is just plain cool :)

beiquan,
Was the school next to a bar (Barking Frog's)? If so, then yes, that's our school. And no we don't get into a lot of bar fights :p. There is a Shao-Lin Center (Shaolin Do) somewhere here in Vegas, but as far as Lohan/Praying Mantis schools go, I don't think Vegas is really a hotbed of Shaolin.

Thanks a lot guys. It's nice to know that the internet can connect so many people like this :)

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com

[mantis108]

NorternShaolin and Shaolin Mantis-I,

Thanks for the info. Really appreciate it.

About the curriculum:

1. Twelve Rows of Tam Tui
2. Gung Lic Kung (Work - Strength Fist)
3. Jeet Chuan (Weaving Fist)
4. Big Battle Fist
5. Eight Trigram Saber
6. Shepherding Staff
7. Five Tiger Spear
8. Tam Tui Sparring
9. Set Fist
10. Saber verses Spear

In your opinion, are they taught in that particular order? is #9-Set Fist a 2 men form? I have learnt 2,3 and possiblely #10 (a very nice set) if TCPM's version is that of Chin Wu? Also have you any info on See Fung Do (Blade Testing Saber)? I believe this could also be one of Ching Wu form which features the essential techniques of Saber. It is a Sun Yuk Fung's form also? This form seems to have modify into a Lung Ying (Dragon Style) Saber form as well. There was a exchanging of sons to teach deal went on between Lung Ying's GM Lum Yui Kwai and Lohan's GM Sun Yuk Fung. Lum's son got weapon training and Sun's son got empty hand training. Could anyone shed some lights into this.

Sigung Chui Chuk Kai taught at a Macao's Ching Wu and then in a Vietnam's Ching Wu branches. So that would explain alot of where some forms and some methodolgy is from. It would seem that the Mantis masters who taught at Ching Wu all agreed that Northern Shaolin is a good foundation for Praying Mantis (I think Dr Yang in his book expressed the same view). Intersting...
They were more open minded than we have thought.

Thanks

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Shaolin Master]

BeiQuan,

Liu He Quan is from the LiuHeSchool. Best known representative during Gu Ru Zhang's time is Wong Lai Sheng (Another of the 5 Northern tigers heading South). The routine there is the First routine of the system which is actually called LiuHeQuan....other routines include HeiHuQuan(Black Tiger), QingLongQuan(GReenDragon), etc....

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[ShaolinMantis]

Northern Shaolin : Ah...As I thought it is you Sisuk. Greetings

Ground Demon pole: That would make sense about Kam Sifu adding it. He added or changed several things in misc sets. There is that same roll in the 3 section set along with a similar underbody move as in the whip chain set. Well it can not be said they were added to make it easier, they certainly don't do that.

ShaolinMantis-I