MA only for fighting?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by joedoe
How about this:

Martial arts are for developing the attributes needed for fighting, but those attributes are often useful for other areas in life.

agreed. You will learn things that are applicable in other facets of life, but those things come as part of the training. I think what many of the people here typically disagree with (myself included) is that to be a "complete martial art" it HAS to teach spirituality, which is simply not true, IMO.

[joedoe]

I would agree with you there.

[Laughing Cow]

One entry found for spirituality.
Main Entry: spir·i·tu·al·i·ty
Pronunciation: "spir-i-ch&-'wa-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Date: 15th century
1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : CLERGY
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual

MA can't give you spirituality as this is a CHRISTIAN concept.



But MA can make you a better and more peaceful person that is more in tune with his/her surroundings.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
Practicing martial arts can be about whatever you want it to be about, IMO. You can do it as a way to keep in touch with your culture, you can do it to stay healthy, you can do it cuz you want to be a proficient fighter, you can do it because you want to compete (whether it be in fighting or demonstration), etc. What is important is that you keep your true goals clear, and that you tailor your practice and training towards those goals.

In other words, just keep it real! Like if you do karate because your dojo is a good social atmosphere and its a good workout and you like doing the forms, that's fine. But then don't try to tell yourself that you're a fighter when you're not. Do what you have to do to meet your goals.

nice. really nice. well said, dragonzrage.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
How can "Martial Arts" be about anything else but fighting?

Art doesnt mean philosophy or spirituality, it means individual skill.


Are CMA just about fighting?

Obviously not for everyone.

Great thread about this on the Southern Forum, called 'The origins of the shaolin temple..." something or other.

Its just plain silly to automatically link Martial Arts with anything else then skill vs other people, when fighting.

for once, i disagree with you.

the definitions of art are myriad. and they extend well past 'individual skill' into more esoteric areas. people don't just react to a great piece of art because of the individual skill reflected. they respond because it hits a nerve. that hits as close to philosophy as to skill.

but that's semantics anyway. and this question shouldn't really be resolved simply by semantics. people can point at the word 'martial' all they want, show me the root derivations, spoon feed me the story of mars god of war, and cut and paste as much of the new collegiate dictionary as they want. that still doesn't really answer the question in any meaningful sense.

like dragonzrage said, martial arts are what you want them to be. they're shaped as much by you as you are by them. (at least, that's how i choose for it to be) and nobody's going to tell me that i didn't gain my love of philosophy and spirituality through martial arts simply because the word means 'war.'

my problem with it is the shortcuts we always imply. the codification. "martial arts are about philosophy as well." what the h-ll does that mean, though?!! we say it (or rail against it) as if it inherently meant something. and it doesn't.

what's so philosophical or spiritual about martial arts? i can tell anyone that cares to know what part martial arts played in my own spiritual and philosophical 'development.' but i think that people need to stop treating it like magic. (not the people here. generally, KFOers seem to be pretty common sensical. i'm talking the community as a whole here.)

do we learn self confidence from martial arts? yeah, probably. but leaving it at that is about as useful as a cat flap in an elephant house. the question is how and why we develop self confidence. that's a simple one. the bigger questions (philosophy, spirituality, blah, blah, blah) follow the same process though. what do you mean by spirituality? how did you experience it? what role did martial arts play in that? what role did other variables play in that?

ask enough questions, and i think any one of us will see how martial arts played a role in our development beyond kicking arse. honestly, how could anything that we devote this much time and effort to not carry a profound impact on our lives? something that pits us up against ourselves and others is bound to teach us things about our character, our fears, our hopes...

and if that isn't philosophy and spirituality, i don't know what is. (idiotically limited dictionary definitions about clergy aside, that is)


stuart b.

[red5angel]

It's a loaded question of sorts. Someone has already said it really is about what you make it. CMA had many levels, and I think that stemmed from different places.
For instance, supposedly it began as a set of excecises to keep buddhist monks healthy. Starting from a religious point of view it was bound to gain spiritual aspects (LC, uh, whatever your book say sthe dictionary defnition of "spirituality" is, it's by far not just a Christian ideal ).
I believe it carries some philisophical aspects with it. If you learn to hurt a man, or kill a man then you at some point probably start to question what gives you the right to do either of these things.
Ultimately, I don't think it matters what you use it for, only that if you want to go out and represent it publicly, you better keep it real as someone said and represent yourself correctly.
If you have only learned taichi as an exercise, don't go teaching it to people who want to learn to use it to fight.

[Xebsball]

Its for fighting

[apoweyn]

I believe it carries some philisophical aspects with it. If you learn to hurt a man, or kill a man then you at some point probably start to question what gives you the right to do either of these things.

wow. i dearly wish i'd thought to say that. it's brilliant.

[apoweyn]

ghthomason,

that's precisely what i was talking about in terms of codification. no offense to you or your beliefs. if you believe in buddha, then power to you. honestly. but to my mind, that's not what makes martial arts capable of holding spirituality. a stock, culture-specific answer isn't it. in my opinion, it's the necessity of asking these sorts of questions that make it potentially spiritual. and the consequent need to answer them. just like red5angel pointed out.


stuart b.

[MightyB]

The spirituality of Martial Arts is comes from the Chan concept of "No Mind."

On the most basic level, when you are focused on practicing, and have practiced so much that you do not need to think about the next move or technique, your mind becomes clear and uncluttered. Your movements flow without thought, without conscious direction from your mind.

my problem with it is the shortcuts we always imply. the codification. "martial arts are about philosophy as well." what the h-ll does that mean, though?!! we say it (or rail against it) as if it inherently meant something. and it doesn't.

but i think that people need to stop treating it like magic.

Martial arts are for developing the attributes needed for fighting, but those attributes are often useful for other areas in life.

It's all about the fighting. It's what you do with that knowledge that makes the difference.

Its for fighting.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[red5angel]

Ap - why do you think I have been posting so much as of late on how far people would take self defense etc? I am in that phase now, basically trying to establish what I would do with the skills I have if ever it came to it. Happened to me in the marine corp too.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

yeah, i'm sure it did. that's a really tough question to answer. in fact, i wonder if you ever answer it unequivocably. i don't know.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

ghthomason,

Originally posted by ghthomason
The spirituality of Martial Arts is comes from the Chan concept of "No Mind."

On the most basic level, when you are focused on practicing, and have practiced so much that you do not need to think about the next move or technique, your mind becomes clear and uncluttered. Your movements flow without thought, without conscious direction from your mind.

For a few momets, there is no mortagage, no screaming kids, no wife, no friends, no work, no boss, etc. to cause you suffering. When practice is over, you return to those things, but during practice, you can remove yourself from them.


From a Chan point of view, Kung Fu is moving meditation.

this is a great explanation. i agree with this wholeheartedly. as i mentioned before, i'm not crazy about the specific spiritual frameworks. but this is a concept that, i think, transcends buddhism in particular.

nicely said.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

I don't think you really do Ap. I think you just come to the conclusion that you can establish a boundary you think you are comfortable with, and then if something happens, you will know if you were right or not.

[apoweyn]

ghthomason,

i'm sorry. i don't believe that.

I don't think you can remove the cultural context and still find the spirituality. Kung Fu and Buddhism are meshed, and if you remove one from the other and try to replace Eastern concepts of spirituality with Western ones, you will create a great big set of ontological problems.

yeah. and i think the analysis and resolution of such ontological problems is a big part of how spirituality develops.

You can't find Jesus in Kung Fu; just as you can't find Buddha in Kung Fu.

i don't believe that. both buddha and jesus are representatives of a body of ideals, morals, and ideas about the infinite. it's those things that people reflect on. not the representation. i believe that people reflect on the ideas and represent them as they see fit. with that in mind, a person's ideas, beliefs, and spiritual leanings can be embodied just as readily by one representation as another.

However, you can learn to calm your mind, even if for brief periods of time, through constant and dedicated practice.

but what, in that practice, is specific to china? to asia? if it's culturally specific, are we westerners even capable of 'getting it'? how? by dressing up in asian clothes? using asian terminology?

i don't accept that. i don't think that's the idea. i think that quieting the mind is a universal concept. addressed very explicitly in asian culture, certainly. but not particular to it. meditation is common to a wide variety of cultural traditions. gnostics, sufi, native american shaman...

Spirituality attained from practice is not the same thing as martial morality, which Red5 seems to be weighing. Whether or not it's right or wrong to break someone's neck in combat has nothing to do with the fact that practice brings peace of mind to the practitoner.

i disagree with you. i think they're connected. spirituality and morality are connected in a great many spiritual traditions. from christianity's ten commandments to buddhism's eightfold path. (right action, for example) even daoism, with it's emphasis on amorality, addresses the issue.


stuart b.