" Why Kung Fu Won't Work In Combat!! "

[jmd161]

Those techniques you drill until they become second nature.

Alot of people think too much when sparring that split second you take to think instead of reacting natural makes a big difference.Most carry this over into real fighting.

jeff

[fa_jing]

Hmm, I think I ascribe to a different approach than say, the one put forth by Royal Dragon. I think you should start sparring as soon as you're in shape for it, and concentrate on developing a "natural" style of fighting that you create out of instinct and whatever you ponder in the time between sparring sessions. You at this point would think more in terms of , "punch punch kick" or something along those lines. Then you start to tighten things up, along the lines of Keep your elbows close, make sure you're retracting your shots as needed, get in get out with your footwork,bam I just got hit maybe this would work next time as a block, etc. At this point you are starting to understand your style from a theoretical basis because of all of the drilling, formwork and conversation with your teacher that you are doing, and it begins to influence the personal fighting style that you are developing. You then start to concentrate on a particular technique or two per round, maintaining your natural fighting style but looking for opportunities for this particular block, strike, or throw. When you find success you integrate this technique into your fight game. You continue to build this way, steadily increasing your theoretical knowledge and adeptness with the style you are studying, until you can use all of the basic techniques and within a framework reasonably similar to what you are studying. That's about where I'm at now. then as you continue to study more and more MA, it continues to seep into your personal fighting style and assists your in your development, along with all of the physical conditioning that you are doing.
Sound like a fair approach? I realize it's not the only one.

[Royal Dragon]

You and I have similar approaches, only I have a whole system for laying the foundation and building an arsenal prior to doing it your way, that's all.

[jmd161]

I think alot of people try to fit their style into the techniques rather than fitting the techniques into their style of fighting.

I've seen ppl that actually try to fight using a form.Hey to each his own.I feel if you could'nt fight before martial arts you won't be much better after learning martial arts.Because you have to have some kind of flow and style of your own to adapt the techniques to.If not then you really have no stye and are kinda free styling it .Hoping that something works.

jeff

[Royal Dragon]

I feel if you could'nt fight before martial arts you won't be much better after learning martial arts

Reply]
If you can't fight before martial arts, and you can't fight after, you had a CRAP teacher.

I'm not all that great myself (by my standards mind you), but I can take a 98 pound weaking with nerd glasses, and train him to fight like a wild banchie on streriods with raw caffine concentrait directly injected into his brain in about 3 years tops.

Like I said, I'm not anything all that special, if "I" can do this, vertually any teacher can. It's going to take a really bad teacher to have students that can't fight well in 3 years, and by 8-9 years, they should be exemplatory fighters. So long as the students themselves are dedicated.

[jmd161]

Royal Dragon ,

What i'm talking about is no matter how well you teach a person if he does'nt have his own style of fighting he's not going to be much better as a fighter.Your style of fighting works for you it won't fit most other fighters.If i or you tried to fight like Mike Tyson we'd most likley get killed.Do you see my meaning?

jeff

[Royal Dragon]

Nope, I don't see your meaning. Tyson has a really goo style of Boxing. Assuming he was capable of actually figiring out what he does, codifying into a teachable system, and then had the ability to actually teach, he could produce some really killer boxers, all fighting in his style.

The above is what happened to Kung Fu. Masters who could not only fight, but TEACH others how they did it, codified thier methods, and began teaching them.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Assuming he was capable of actually figiring out what he does, codifying into a teachable system, and then had the ability to actually teach, he could produce some really killer boxers, all fighting in his style.

Tyson's style works for Tyson if Oscar De La Hoya tried to fight with that style it would not work for him.No matter how much you teach a person. Something has to be theirs!Either the flow or the techniques ,but something.You can't just take someone and make them do everything tyson does and expect a good fighter.They might not have the feeling or timeing needed to make the style effective.Case in point Marvis Frazier tried to use the peekaboo style his father made famous.His father was his teacher and trainer it did'nt work.Marvis Frazier is not Joe Frazier!

Do you see my point now?

jeff

[jmd161]

Royal Dragon,

If it was as easy as you say.

There would be a whole lotta Rocky Marciano's(sp),Joe Lewis's and Muhammed Ali's runnuing around in boxing today.

But there's not is there?

jeff

[Royal Dragon]

Not really, because teaching your "Style" to another depends more on your teaching ability than fighting ability. Many top level fighters just aren't capable of teaching period.

All the attributes in a a style CAN be taught. many coaches don't really want to take the time to train carbon copies of themselves. It seems to be more efficient to bring out the fighter wiht in, but that does not mean it's impossible to teach another to move, and fight the same way you do.

What you have to to is teach them to "Think" like you do.

Tyson's style works for Tyson if Oscar De La Hoya tried to fight with that style it would not work for him.No matter how much you teach a person

It depends on wheter or not there was an effective system inplace to TRAIN others to think, move and react the same way or not. Humans are the most adaptable creatures on the planet. We can do anything we put our minds to. So long as the body type is similar, the individual can carbon copy a fighting system if they want. it may not be the most efficient way to develop a fighter, but it is an accomplishable goal.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Not really, because teaching your "Style" to another depends more on your teaching ability than fighting ability. Many top level fighters just aren't capable of teaching period.

All the attributes in a a style CAN be taught. many coaches don't really want to take the time to train carbon copies of themselves. It seems to be more efficient to bring out the fighter wiht in, but that does not mean it's impossible to teach another to move, and fight the same way you do.

What you have to to is teach them to "Think" like you do.

Royal Dragon,

You're still missing my point and somewhere i'm still missing yours.

Because if a person does'nt have natural ability there's only so much you can teach them.Some people no matter how much they train will ever be good fighters it's not within them.Some people without training are already good fighters because There's something within them.I'm not taking anything away from your teaching or anyone else teaching.Just because you know techniques does'nt make you a good fighter.Just because you understand them does'nt either.You have to have a natural ability of your own to fit the techniques together and flow with them.Anyone can mimick someone but it takes your natural ability to make it work.I can't fight off your ability even if i'm a carbon copy of your fighting style.I have to have my own ability to make any of it work.

jeff

[Royal Dragon]

Here's my take on it,

If a student has natural ability, I don't have to work very hard to teach them, if they don't I do do have to work very hard. Either way, unless they have a physicl handicap, I can teach them to be a clone of myself with enough effort.

Although, in that same thought, one man with a pick and a shovel can move a mountain if he could only live long enough.

[SevenStar]

That's his point - you don't want him to be a clone of yourself. as a fighter, he needs to develop his own style. Also, teaching only does so much. like he was saying, it takes a certain something to be a fighter. You have it or you don't, and not everyone has it. If they don't have it, you can still train them to be effective, yes, but they will not be the caliber of the other competitors.

[jmd161]

Originally posted by SevenStar
That's his point - you don't want him to be a clone of yourself. as a fighter, he needs to develop his own style. Also, teaching only does so much. like he was saying, it takes a certain something to be a fighter. You have it or you don't, and not everyone has it. If they don't have it, you can still train them to be effective, yes, but they will not be the caliber of the other competitors.

Thanks SevenStar,

That's what i was trying to point out.I'm not good at putting thoughts to words sometimes so i was'nt sure if i was making myself clear.

jeff

[Royal Dragon]

If they don't have it, you can still train them to be effective, yes, but they will not be the caliber of the other competitors.

Reply]
Well, your not going to make a Tito out of someone who does not have natural talent, but you can still teach his style of fighting to others if you tried hard enough.

How effective of a fighter really depends on tweo things, the teacher, and the student. Like I said before, a good teacher can take a 98 pound weakling with broken Nerd glasess, and train them to be one hell of a fighter if they are willing and dedicated students (Barring some sort of physical handicap),

I think my point here is that desire, dedication and hard work on both the teachers part, and the students will make up for ALOT of missing talent.

A good example is one of my daughter's teammates. Lets call her "Dolly"

Dolly hates my daughter because she is natural raw talent, and really does not have to work very hard to get medals. Dolly on the other hand really suc-ks. She has to train 110% all the time, do extra priviate lessons, and drill obsessively just to get into the top 10. Now, here's the point, despite her major suckyness, and all her struggles, last time they competed, she took the Gold, and my daughter took a Bronze (Some Kid from another gym took Silver).

It's all about desire kids. If the desire is not there, you can't do much. Your students have to WANT it. If they do, there are no limits.