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Thread: Vegetarian

  1. #61
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    And you're going to argue that humans 'puncture and rip' in order to consume their food??
    Ok, so, when you eat an apple...

    Do you like cram it into the back part of your mouth where the molars are, or do you puncture into and wedge/slice into the apple with your front cutting teeth to get a chunk, whereupon, you then positoin the piece onto your molars for further chewing?

    You don't have to chase prey, or eat it while living to eat with your teeth as designed. They are designed to pierce, cut, tear, and chew, incisors, canines, and molars. Pretty cool.

    And when a human eats a big piece of steak, especially if a little overdone and tough, yes, they puncture into the meat with thier front teeth, and tear off a piece if they have not cut it with a knife (what, we didn't always have steak knives and daggers???), and reposition it to the molars where...well you get it.

  2. #62
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    The advancement of the human race, and our survival, surely had nothing to do with the consumption of meat.
    Hey, I am just following the logic here. What do you mean by 'surely'? Like in, based on some preponderance of historical evidence that you are going to share, surely what you are saying is true?

    I would argue the weapons you listed would have primarily been used as weapons of self defence before they would have ever been used to 'hunt' animals.
    You would argue this based on basic history, or just common sense or what?

    Self defence from what? Other humans? Do you think humans at that stage in time, where defending themselves primarily from themselves (consider the population at that time) or from dangerous animals? Since we did not have the social infrastructures back then that we have today, how do you suppose humans defended themselves from wild animals? They were forced to kill them with weapons, not their bare hands.

    And in a time when any food was neccessary for survival being scare in nature, what do you think they did with the animals that were killed?

    One more, you have me thinking now. Suppose I placed you in the wilderness or you and a hundred people in the wilderness, say five thousand years ago. How long to do you think you guys would live without weapons? What would be your greatest dangers? Each other?

    Also, why would the advent of 'farming' cause mass meat consumption, as now grains and high carb diets/vegtables would be the main reaping of the harvest?

  3. #63
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    Originally posted by CD Lee


    Now, seriously. Is that true? What do you mean by basic history? Is this something you read from a history book. I am being serious.

    See, because Bill Phillips, who does not quote his historical references either, says just the opposite. He says we were primarily meat eaters until FARMING came along, at which point we becaume carb eaters and starting dying from cancers.

    Ok, so, what historical references are you talking about that show us , as you said above, versus you telling us, that humans were primarily vegetarian for most of our existence?

    Did Native Americans eat meat or just farm? Did they trap animals, hunt animals, eat buffalo, live on dried meats and fish? Is that like what you mean by 'basic history'?

    Does 'basic history' mean just those things I can recall from history that I can think up right now, that lead us to a common sense and obvious conclusion?
    Sorry, the reason I said "basic" history was so I could be as ambiguous as the person who said "basic" biology.

    I wrote out a giant response and chose not to post it because this will just get more ridiculous. I have degree in history and minored in Anthropology and over those years I had gathered enough knowledge (well i think so anyhow! ) from research, papers, etc ... to know that humankind did not depend on meat for much of history and it especially did not make any sense for them to do so. If you would like me to go into this at length, i certainly can but I thought I would ask you first before I do so.
    I don't know who Bill Phillips is, but that statement you made about farming contradicts anything I've ever learned about the paths that humankind has made with respect to their diets.
    The history of Native Americans is hard to chart, as I have spent time researching this area as well, it is hard to come up with difinitive conclusions about their history because very little is recorded. I should probably make my stance clear here, which is that I feel that many people think that meat has been a staple of the human diet since the beginning, that we are inherently meat eaters, and it is this which i am arguing against.
    Ill answer your other posts when I get a chance
    LATER!

  4. #64
    Man originated in Africa and was primarily vegetarian. After a time, man migrated north and slowly spread across the globe, populating it's furthest corners. The single most important thing in that migration was when man began eating meat. That meant that wherever he went there would be prey to hunt down and kill and therefore he wouldn't starve. Before this "inovation" man had been tied to his environment due to the fact that only within a certain distance could the plants and roots that he ate be found, due primarily to climactic conditions. It got us through ice ages and migrations through northern continents. We evolved into meat eaters and continued to consume what vegetables, roots, fruit, etc. that we could and thereby became classically omniverous.

    Nowadays we certainly eat way more meat, especially red meat, than is actually good for us, especially in developed western countries. But meat has been an important part of our diets for millennia.

    Just some food for thought.
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
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  5. #65
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    Originally posted by CD Lee


    Ok, so, when you eat an apple...

    Do you like cram it into the back part of your mouth where the molars are, or do you puncture into and wedge/slice into the apple with your front cutting teeth to get a chunk, whereupon, you then positoin the piece onto your molars for further chewing?

    You don't have to chase prey, or eat it while living to eat with your teeth as designed. They are designed to pierce, cut, tear, and chew, incisors, canines, and molars. Pretty cool.

    And when a human eats a big piece of steak, especially if a little overdone and tough, yes, they puncture into the meat with thier front teeth, and tear off a piece if they have not cut it with a knife (what, we didn't always have steak knives and daggers???), and reposition it to the molars where...well you get it.
    Well ... with your apple analogy, I noticed you didn't say "tear" or "rip" into it ... which is what I thought some people here are arguing the purpose of these teeth are for. I guess I can in turn ask you what do you do when you eat an orange? Do you tear at it with your teeth, or do you peel it, break off a piece and place it in your mouth for chewing? I'm not sure where you're going with the steak analogy - if you're saying we didn't always have knives and daggers to cut the pieces of meat ... well then how did you get this nice cut of steak then!??!?!

  6. #66
    Originally our canines and incisors were used for ripping and tearing at meat. When we first started to bring down prey we didn't have knives and ovens. We'd bring it down, rip off a chunk with our front teeth and masticate it with the molars.

    However, that does raise the question of when these teeth developed, as we were not originally a predator but a gatherer. We subsequently became hunter gatherers.

    Anyone?
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
    ---------------------------------------------
    but what if the man of steel hasta fight another man of steel only that man of steel knows kung fu? - Kristoffer
    ---------------------------------------------
    How do you think monks/strippers got started before the internet? - Gene Ching
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    Find your peace in practice. - Gene Ching

  7. #67
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by CD Lee
    [B]

    Hey, I am just following the logic here. What do you mean by 'surely'? Like in, based on some preponderance of historical evidence that you are going to share, surely what you are saying is true?

    *** Ehhhh granted I think I lost my train of thought on that one

    You would argue this based on basic history, or just common sense or what?

    ***Common Sense from what knowledge i've gained from studying the fields of History and Anthropology.

    Self defence from what? Other humans? Do you think humans at that stage in time, where defending themselves primarily from themselves (consider the population at that time) or from dangerous animals? Since we did not have the social infrastructures back then that we have today, how do you suppose humans defended themselves from wild animals? They were forced to kill them with weapons, not their bare hands.

    *** I'm saying S.D from wild animals. Again, my point was vs. someone saying we used clubs to hunt animals, to which I said was ridiculous and that clubs would have been used for S.D. from animals (if at all) and not for hunting them. My example was imagine hunting a deer with a club, I think you'll agree it is nearly impossible.

    One more, you have me thinking now. Suppose I placed you in the wilderness or you and a hundred people in the wilderness, say five thousand years ago. How long to do you think you guys would live without weapons? What would be your greatest dangers? Each other?

    *** Uhh i'm not sure where this is supposed to be going ... bc i don't want to stray too far off the topic at hand ...

    Also, why would the advent of 'farming' cause mass meat consumption, as now grains and high carb diets/vegtables would be the main reaping of the harvest?

    *** Farming has to do with the domestication of animals, and i say Farming and Factory Farming specifically because Farming raised the consumption/availability of meat and factory farming is what lead to mass consumption.

  8. #68
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    Originally posted by Serpent
    Originally our canines and incisors were used for ripping and tearing at meat. When we first started to bring down prey we didn't have knives and ovens. We'd bring it down, rip off a chunk with our front teeth and masticate it with the molars.

    Anyone?
    If we didn't have knives (i'm guessing you're also meaning spears or other weapons too) to 'bring down prey' ... then how did we do it? Are you suggesting the mighty human RAN down a deer, gazelle, Buffalo, wild pig, etc ... caught a fish with it's bare hands etc ... ?? And ate it raw right there on the spot??

  9. #69
    Originally posted by Spark


    If we didn't have knives (i'm guessing you're also meaning spears or other weapons too) to 'bring down prey' ... then how did we do it? Are you suggesting the mighty human RAN down a deer, gazelle, Buffalo, wild pig, etc ... caught a fish with it's bare hands etc ... ?? And ate it raw right there on the spot??
    Not necessarily. Perhaps good hunting originated with the spear or something similar, but it would have been before we learned the skills of carving a nice steak with a sharp knife.
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
    ---------------------------------------------
    but what if the man of steel hasta fight another man of steel only that man of steel knows kung fu? - Kristoffer
    ---------------------------------------------
    How do you think monks/strippers got started before the internet? - Gene Ching
    ---------------------------------------------
    Find your peace in practice. - Gene Ching

  10. #70
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    Spark - You are so nice. Great responses to my 'attitude' laced questions. I am shocked that you did not blowtorch me with a big flame.

    I don't know who Bill Phillips is, but that statement you made about farming contradicts
    anything I've ever learned about the paths that humankind has made with respect to their
    diets.
    He is the Body for Life guy. What he says makes some sense, but his grab at history to support his position was irritating. Obviously, he provided no details on his statement: that because of farming, we all became carb. eaters and cancer bearing creatures.

    Oh, my whole point on the apple bit was to say that we still puncture, split, and even tear at foods with our front teeth, before sending them to the molars for crushing. What does that mean? Nothing other than our teeth are designed to do such. Do we have to eat meat because of this. NO. I take the simple position that there is nothing evil or wrong with eating meat within reasonable limits. And hey, I picked an apple becuase I cannot break it and pick at it. I have to get a good chuck out of it with my front teeth first. Oranges are a piece of cake. hehe.

    Actually on your offer of history, I would like some more detail. This is of pure interest on my part. I am not looking to destroy your postion for the sake of argument. But I am a history buff myself having studied many years in Christian patristic studies. I know all too well how people take history and interpret what they need to. However, I am reasonably objective, so that information would be pretty nice I would think. Do you mind?

    Hunting? Definately evolved later and not with clubs. Spears I would imagine would be first and only useful choice for quite some time. What Serpent said made a lot of sense. Of coure poeple did not chase down animals and rip them apart like hyenas. We are very slow...

    Farming and mass meat production has come along so close to our time, I agree that this caused meat production to be unusually higher than nature allows. That IS common sense. All I am saying is that farms originally in the development of agriculture were not meat producers, but more vegetable oriented in nature. Modern farms I agree, can be 'anything' due to our modern infrastructure.

  11. #71
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    evolution and meat eating

    We evolved from primates: The australopithecines evolved in Africa about 5 million years ago and they shared a common ancestor with modern chimpanzees, who have (and had) a significant amount of meat in thier diet. They hunt, usually in groups, sometimes with simple tools.

    So we were physiologically and biochemically prepared to eat meat even at the time of earliest fossil record, but for a time, we were certainly limited in terms of tools (and big and slow, as someone pointed out...) Which brings the idea that we may have been meat eaters of opportunity, possibly scavengers to some extent?

    It's interesting too that neither primates nor humans know instinctively what to eat. We learn from watching others.

    -Cynth
    Last edited by Ming Yue; 02-26-2003 at 11:49 AM.
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  12. #72
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    Re: evolution and meat eating

    Originally posted by Ming Yue
    It's interesting too that neither primates nor humans know instinctively what to eat. We learn from watching others.
    aye. if they fall over dead, don't eat what they ate.

    it also may why many people have a natural aversion to bitter foods, as many plants and such poisonous to humans are quite bitter. people who don't like bitter foods spat out what to them tasted like ass. people who like bitter foods were more likely to eat them and, thus, keel over a few minutes later.
    " i wonder how many people take their post bone marrow transplant antibiotics with amberbock" -- GDA

  13. #73
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    Originally posted by Spark


    The advancement of the human race, and our survival, surely had nothing to do with the consumption of meat. I would argue the weapons you listed would have primarily been used as weapons of self defence before they would have ever been used to 'hunt' animals. Could you ever imagine trying to hunt a deer with a club!?!?!
    As well these weapons, and hunting for that matter, would have taken a large group of people who would have had to go on missions for weeks at a time in order to return with any type of worthwhile amounts.
    Basic History and Anthropology shows us that humans were primarily vegetarian for most of our existence and it wasn't until the introduction of farming, and then factory farming, that meat became a 'staple' of the human diet.
    Actually, I have been able to get within feet, and sometimes even inches of deer that were not aware I was there.

    Once I had a doe realize something was not right - she sniffed at my face and then snorted big time, I didn't appreciate getting slimed , so I stood up. She suddenly was confronted with a predator she wasn't expecting, and we both kinda stared at each other for half a second and then she bolted.

    I've done the same with fox, coyotes, turkeys, elk, and even bobcat. It's easier with animals like elk, deer, and turkeys, because they tend to process movement. Don't move & that can't really process what's going on.

    Predators like fox, coyotes, and bobcat can also process more than just movement and are much, much harder to stalk / get close to.

    Anyways, I suspect that just because URBANIZED people cannot get close to an animal, primitive cultures and motivated people, can do a much better job than you may want to beleive.

    Also, I suspect you'd find that the dietary habiots of early man was more in line with say, those of a bear, than other animals. Bears, though largely vegitarians, also eat carrion, and will kill an animal for food given the chance.

    Oh, and I am very impressed at the tone of this thread as I did choose my wording in an half-hearted attempt at sparking controversy.


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  14. #74
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    Originally posted by CD Lee
    Spark - You are so nice. Great responses to my 'attitude' laced questions. I am shocked that you did not blowtorch me with a big flame.

    .
    CD Lee
    No problem, I learned a long time ago that there's no point in getting your panties all in a knot over stuff on this board. I'm at work now, so I can't go into your response yet, but I will later today/tonight.
    Later!
    spark

  15. #75
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    Hey!

    Oh, and I am very impressed at the tone of this thread as I did choose my wording in an half-hearted attempt at sparking controversy.
    No fair hollering troll now, this is getting interesting.
    The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it's still on the list.

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