Vegetarian

[Spark]

CD LEE!!

I read your post and went to that site where that article was posted ...
Did you go through that whole site? That foundation is kinda anti-vegetarian, did you notice that?
I have a hard time seeing that stuff as being objective.
Do you have any other info?
That site as all, "You need beef, it doesn't cause Mad Cow, It doesn't cause Cancer, it's all a hoax to trick you blalbalabl" ... kinda paranoid talk if you ask me.
Check it out and tell me what you think!

Later,
Spark

[Ming Yue]

My comments weren't inadvertent. I always bring up interesting stuff on purpose, and sometimes with malice aforethought.

I maintain that hunting was indeed a regular activity for neolithic man. As it was most certainly exciting and dangerous, and its successful outcome provided for the entire group, of course it was chronicled in thier artwork as the most important event, not a rare one. It sustained them. Definitely so throughout winter.

The conversation is gravitating to extremes, also. Stone age man was most certainly NOT a fully carnivorous killer ape. Third time, I say we were eaters of opportunity. My educated guess would be that the average stone age diet would contain maybe 20% meat at it's highest level. and thats a huge geographic generalization.

Later, Neanderthals did eat an almost entirely meat diet. I will look around and see what I can learn about the changes in brain development during this period specifically. I find the whole marrow thing really interesting and wonder how it overlaps with a mostly meat-eating period in our development.

-Cynthia

[RAF]

Interesting Readings:

http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_tr...tarianism.html (read footnotes and references)

http://www.acsh.org/publications/pri...egetarian.html

http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509.htm

[Spark]

Originally posted by Ming Yue

I maintain that hunting was indeed a regular activity for neolithic man. As it was most certainly exciting and dangerous, and its successful outcome provided for the entire group, of course it was chronicled in thier artwork as the most important event, not a rare one. It sustained them. Definitely so throughout winter.

The conversation is gravitating to extremes, also. Stone age man was most certainly NOT a fully carnivorous killer ape. Third time, I say we were eaters of opportunity. My educated guess would be that the average stone age diet would contain maybe 20% meat at it's highest level. and thats a huge geographic generalization.

Later, Neanderthals did eat an almost entirely meat diet. I will look around and see what I can learn about the changes in brain development during this period specifically. I find the whole marrow thing really interesting and wonder how it overlaps with a mostly meat-eating period in our development.

-Cynthia

Cynthia,
That's cool of what your stance is. I have stated my argument and given examples and references to support it. I have seen little concrete evidence given yet to the contrary other than cave paintings, which in my opinion doesn't really prove anything. If you could give references to Neadrethals eating an entirely meat diet, that would help this discussion out
Although if you read my posts again, there are points made about this period in history.
I am very suspect about the meat eating changing our brain develpment. If we break down the statement "fatty acids found in bone marrow" ... Fatty acids can be found in a plethora of meats, as well as plants and legumes ... "gave us enough calories ... " the idea that calories is responsible for the evolution of our brains is ridiculous and if this was true then the amount of meat humankind (especially in the US) has consumed in the last 100 years, our brains would have evolved us all into Einsteins.

[inic]

OMG where did this post come from??? manoman have some of you got your facts wrong. vegetarianism has so many things wrong with it. you people really need to do some actual research and studies and experiments before you rant you're so-called "facts". Meat is the cause of cancer you say?? then tell me why native americans, tribal africans and australians are some of the most healthy people and pretty much only eat meat (raw is key!) I'm getting real tired of vegetarians proclaim they are the all-knowing healthiest people when you couldnt be ****her from the truth. go research weston price or aajonus vendalritz (whateverhisname is)
personally i think vegetarian leads to chemical imbalances. ever vegan i know seems to have high rate of emotions (good and bad) and just has that sense of "something wrong here" about them.
I do everything in laymen terms: if you want hard data, i'll give you tons, but nowadays, one study will disprove another to disprove a study that that one disproved and so on and so on... i think 90% of so-called studies done today are biased crap.
man, lol, i am really ranting right nwo and probably not making any sense am i? bah, i give up! go on with ur veganims if u really want, but dont try to preach to the world that is the best thing next to God... keep your ignorance to yourself

[inic]

ugh, i just see now that evolution has made its way into this topic too! arggg i give up!! I spent 4 years studying evolution, to help me understand it so i can better fight it. now i'm going on 2 years studying nutrition. i noticed with both fields, no matter what you know, study,research; when people dont have an open mind and generally want to listen, they arent going to give a care about what you know...

[Spark]

Originally posted by inic
OMG where did this post come from??? manoman have some of you got your facts wrong. vegetarianism has so many things wrong with it. you people really need to do some actual research and studies and experiments before you rant you're so-called "facts". Meat is the cause of cancer you say?? then tell me why native americans, tribal africans and australians are some of the most healthy people and pretty much only eat meat (raw is key!) I'm getting real tired of vegetarians proclaim they are the all-knowing healthiest people when you couldnt be ****her from the truth. go research weston price or aajonus vendalritz (whateverhisname is)
personally i think vegetarian leads to chemical imbalances. ever vegan i know seems to have high rate of emotions (good and bad) and just has that sense of "something wrong here" about them.
I do everything in laymen terms: if you want hard data, i'll give you tons, but nowadays, one study will disprove another to disprove a study that that one disproved and so on and so on... i think 90% of so-called studies done today are biased crap.
man, lol, i am really ranting right nwo and probably not making any sense am i? bah, i give up! go on with ur veganims if u really want, but dont try to preach to the world that is the best thing next to God... keep your ignorance to yourself

Inic,
I don't know if you're addressing me, but I seem to be the only veggie here
This thread, and my posts have never been about arguing the 'superiority' of a vegetarian diet, so don't get all mad at me and start ranting about how it sucks. I have never said meat is the cause of cancer, I am not that stupid as to make such a sweeping, unspecific statement.
I gave an example of the Kalahari Bushmen in one of my posts, and it is quite clear if you say they are some of the most healthiest, it has nothing to do with meat.
I've been to WestonPrice and all the sites listed by RMF (sp???) and all I can say is that once a site/article/organization has to stoop to making fun of vegetarians and proclaiming them to be lunitics, that just tells me how desperate they are (why I don't know) to grasp at reasons to debunk a vegetarian diet.

[inic]

yup, i'm totally in the ranting mood right now... honestly i never even read any of your posts, i just read the first 2 pages and the last one. its too much to read this whole post! I really dont think vegans are "lower" than me or anything like that, i just think they are simply misguided and reading misinformation. I've done so many experiments to prove my points. but these were all done with my own body, and every body is different of course. i did go 2 months though on a vegan diet as one experiment. I'm totally into doing experiments with diets because i'm always ready to see if a so-called "fact" is true or not

[Spark]

Yo inic,
That's cool man. I was worried for a sec bc we've debated here before and it's stayed pretty cool, so I was worried you were givin me the business! HAHA
And I've read your posts about your diet so I know you wouldn't just blurb out nonesense.
This thread though has stayed pretty tame considering this topic can get people pretty riled up.
Later,
Spark

[TzuChan]

You people should know that being a vegetarian in your teens can cause serious health damages, there were two people in my class that didn't eat meat etc.. right now, they have this disease that people are only expected to have when they turn 90 or something (something with their bones, and blood flow, seriously nasty stuff)... and it's a direct effect of the non-meat eating thing

[rubthebuddha]

how about the idea that we're omnivorous for one specific reason -- to be able to survive and adapt in very diverse environments. the more options we have, the higher our chances of survival. those who could eat a diverse diet survived, those who couldn't died more easily.

think about it this way -- put a koala bear in kansas and see how long it lives (other than some silly redneck shooting at it). put a human in okinawa and he'll eat fish and seaweed, put him in canada and he'll eat carribou and berries, put him in the midwest and he'll eat cattle and wheat.

we can adapt, partly because we're intelligent enough to figure out a new way to eat and partly because our digestive system is well-rounded enough to handle it.*

*note -- this doesn't take into account the fact that anyone that makes such dietary changes typically gets some fantastic cases of the shats. they may be uncomfortable, but at least they'll be alive.

[Outcast]

Ok, I have read this forum with interest, and there are lots of vailid points. I am a vegie and for the reason that my doctor noticed that the meat I enjoyed and used to eat was cr@p. It was all high fat burgers and sausages. He recommended that I should eat better sources of meat (purer I guess, rather then processed cr@p) or take on a more vegetarian diet.

I cut out red meats, then chicken and finally I cut out fish (all out of my own choice rather then having a doctor preach at me, he did mention that I should be more selective of the meats I ate but never pushed me into it). I have dropped 2 stone in about 8 months and I feel fine, my BP is better and I still look forward to a good feed

I dont hold anything against folk who want to (or feel the need to eat meat) I know how good it used to taste.

I guess it all comes down to eating well, either as a vegie or an omnivore.

[prana]

actually, mankind (pre ****-****) were originally vegetarians... but their brains were about half the size they are today.

This documentary that I saw had filmed skeletal remains of the purely vegetarian era, and the brain size suddenly greatly increased due to the eating of meat.

Wether the human body is made to eat both meat and veges from the very beginning, I do not know.


About the appendix being for digesting red meat, I am not sure where that came from but....

dogs + cats have no appendix
Horses have no appendix
Rabbits do (???)

The appendix would appear to have a role (although not as the sole organ) in establishing and maintaining the bowel-blood barrier for such bacteria in its area. The special aspects of the mucus produced in this area (the antibacterial paint-like action) along with the appendix figuring in the development of its region have been discussed. It has also been shown that the appendix can in no way be vestigial in an evolutionary sense.

[Ming Yue]

yikes.

I think it's time to drag out the dead horse, although for this thread perhaps we could form one out of TVP and beat on that.

I have read no arguments here that dissuade me from the knowledge that humans are and have always been omnivorous.

Also for the record, Vegetarian and vegan diets can be completely nutritive and healthful, they just require a little more attention to detail.

sociologists often cite that the modern human male's affinity for cookout's and Bar-B-Q'ing is thought to be a hold over from our past, when the person in control of the meat was in control of the group hierarchy.

Sure, big fires bring out the caveman in all men. Now, I like a really big fire more than the average girl, but somehow at barbeques I still find myself clustered with the other women in the kitchen preparing side dishes. The million year old habits are the really hard ones to break.

[CD Lee]

I can smell the dead horse getting closer...

Yes, we are close to beating the dead horse, but this thread remained civil enough to get some good points on both sides of the arguent, and to learn some things. At the end of the day, you had better be able to take information, think about it, process it, and take a reasonable course of action with good concience.

Spark - Very nice posts the last 4 or 5. Good info, and good sources. I know we can find studies all day that counter each other, but it is still good material. Thanks.

you said...

I read your post and went to that site where that article was posted ...
Did you go through that whole site? That foundation is kinda anti-vegetarian, did you
notice that?
I have a hard time seeing that stuff as being objective.

Yeah, I did notice. I read very skeptically these days. I could care less really what they think about meat or veggies. All I cared about was their sources and historical records of observation. Hey, I completely dislike the whole Adkin's diet thing. I just wanted to observe the practcality of smaller tribes, of less industrialized peoples, hunting game as part of thier diets in a wilderness containing all the dangers that modern infrastructures and societies mitigate. Thats all. I found the information very interesting. I noticed the bias, and ignored it. I just wanted some info on what Indians did, not if they were healthy, happy, or whatever.