Someone please clear this up for me...?

[red5angel]

I have been too a very good school that has gone commercial. however, What I have found is that they do have larger classes, and it is hit or miss if the instructors really know as much as they should.

[SaMantis]

I agree that both franchised schools and backyard instructors have their good and bad sides. In BOTH cases quality will suffer if standards aren't upheld by the sifu and/or his instructors.

As far as McDojo vs. business, there IS a difference. Allow me to illustrate:

McDojo Instructor: "Hurry and learn your form, the next test is in two weeks! You won't make black belt unless you test every three months! If you REALLY want to learn that form well, attend the next seminar, it's only $500."

"Business" sifu: "You're not ready to test yet. Go practice."

The difference being that students aren't pushed to advance to the next item (i.e. belt test) that will make money for the school; they're encouraged to move at a pace that will improve their skill, not necessarily the size of the sifu's wallet.

This is an idealized example, but if a sifu recognizes the difference between marketing and quality instruction, then he/she can train excellent students AND pay the bills. It's a balance.

[Leto]

maybe a little off topic...but someone earlier mentioned a student starting up a school and then hiring a teacher. That idea is in line with the advice of the 'Bubishi', which says that when a good teacher is found the students should provide a proper place for him (or her) to teach. The quality of the school, therefore, should be a reflection of the student's loyalty and appreciation of the teacher. Even if the students are not rich, they would strive to have something, some place where a teacher could instruct them...and they would tend to it as though it were a part of their own home. They would honor the teacher this way, and show their appreciation and dedication to learning by providing for the teacher as best they could.

In modern American culture, this is almost reversed. Money is the only thing worth anything to many people, thus we consider the paying of money to be the ultimate sacrifice. I have given you some money, now I expect something in return. Clever businesspeople can take advantage of this mentality, and do, in the martial arts field...this is how we have the 'McDojo', 'black belt factories', places where people accept signing a contract to reach a belt in a predetermined amount of time. The 'belt' is what people are expecting to receive for their ultimate sacrifice of several hundred (or thousand) dollars. Work? Time? Effort? Practice? Those are good ways to get in shape, but not what was payed for.

The students get the teachers they deserve, in other words. Or they get the teacher they are ready for. This is NOT an excuse for con-artists and phonies, I believe what they are doing is morally wrong. But I also believe that there are 'real' martial artists, with 'real' skills, who have decided to make a living teaching. And due to the nature of our society, it is not always possible to do that without 'selling out' to some extent.

"...If the teacher is not respected,
And the student not cared for,
Confusion will arise, however clever one is.
This is the crux of mystery." -Tao Te Ching, chapter 27

[norther practitioner]

I fell that the focus of the Sifu is no longer 100% on the teaching.

Two edged sword.... the one teaching out of his backyard can't commit 100% either (unless they are independently wealthy and retired). How do they keep that space, working, maybe a 9-5, my shirfus 9-5 just so happens to be the guan.

[straight blast]

To LaughingCow:

His students (usually anywhere between 10-40 per lesson) are a mix of Japanese and westerners, with a few Germans thrown in, from students to professionals. Here on the Coast very few people I've met actually work 9-5 jobs...and if the 1st class of the day starts around 10:00 and the last finishes at 8:30 it's not too hard to find one or two to get to.

And some of us work night shifts so we can attend most of the day classes.

Starboy...

Fine, sell out. I really don't care

Then why did you get personal?

Maybe, just maybe, you'll end up at a franchise school where you have a great instructor that knows what he's doing. But I doubt it, and I'd never gamble with my education like that.

It seems to me that you've let your education slip in a number of areas before...why stop now?

To everyone else who posted, thanks for your input. I actually posted this to see the educated opinions of others and I think SAMantis summed it up nicely.

[Stryder]

I go to a school where the most people in our class is 8 people. Our Sifu's, are trying to increase student size to pay for facility rental, by some peoples ideals, that makes them sell outs. Tell me how then are we to keep good schools around if they don't promote themselves to try and get more students.

The reason I ask this is because for the last year and a half our sifu's have been covering the remainder of the costs to keep the place running, and if places like these are not expected to promote themselves for fear of becoming sell outs, then we may actually lose these little gems.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by straight blast
To LaughingCow:

His students (usually anywhere between 10-40 per lesson) are a mix of Japanese and westerners, with a few Germans thrown in, from students to professionals. Here on the Coast very few people I've met actually work 9-5 jobs...and if the 1st class of the day starts around 10:00 and the last finishes at 8:30 it's not too hard to find one or two to get to.

And some of us work night shifts so we can attend most of the day classes.

Thanks, that makes sense. Over here the normal work hours are 9-8, so plenty of classes are on the weekend.

cheers.

[StarBoy]

Then why did you get personal?

Did I? I don't really remember, though I do feel obligated to mock sellouts. I mean, I have no respect for people who sell out (especially in MA) so why not? Besides, in my experience all but one instructor at a McKwoon or McDojo as well as most "business" oriented schools (and I've seen many) has been a total mook, so I hope that expressing my opinions will dissuade anyone looking for a new school from going to one of these "businesses".

It seems to me that you've let your education slip in a number of areas before...why stop now?

What are you talking about?

Our Sifu's, are trying to increase student size to pay for facility rental, by some peoples ideals, that makes them sell outs.

This isn't selling out. As long as the quality of education doesn't suffer, then it's a good thing. If a sifu can take more students, there's no reason he or she shouldn't do some promotion to put their school out there. With 8 students it is difficult to maintain a facility. I posted in another thread (the soda machine thread) talking about one of my sifu's budgets and how she had no problem running a school. Then again, she had no problem keeping her class size at a decent level (without sacrificing quality) to cover the bills.